Needle Tatting as independent technique?

[IcePrincess]

Dear all,

while reading the newest "working from the ball"-thread a tought came up I had repeatedly in the last years, ever since I first encountered a tatting needle.

My very first thought on the needle was "hey, that should give me different possibilities from the shuttle!". Unfortunately I didn't stay on, didn't practice much beyond the basics. I still think that you can work threads on the needle that are impossible to do on a shuttle. And there should be technical possibilities you don't have with a shuttle.

Wouldn't it be far more inspiring if we would consider needle tatting an art form by itself? Independent from shuttle tatting? If we wouldn't try to "translate" shuttle patterns for the needle, but create needle patterns that maybe even don't work with the shuttle?

I'd like your input to this discussion.

[swissgirl]

Hello

In general I agree with it, that it might be a different "art", but isn't it easier and better for all of us if we can use diagrams and instructions for both "arts" of tatting, one wants to try out needle, one does both of them, and then you have to learn another system, new abbreviations and so on? If you are part of a group, with different tatters (needle and shuttle) you won't be able to use the same diagrams, you cannot share them anymore! I think we should try to keep them uniform, easy, worldwide usuable, maybe with a remark like "good for needle/shuttle".
I think, it would be a good idea to find a world wide tatting language, using the same diagrams, the same kind of abbreviations, how to show a picot, (p or -), and so on, that would be a big work. As a relativ newcomer in tatting, I bought some books, to give you a number there are 7 books or booklets, and 6 different styles in abbreviations! one using 4-4+4-4, the other using 4 p 4 + 4 p 4, another, old style booklet with diagrams just write the number 16! HELP!!! For newbies it is difficult to find out how and why and where to count, join, not to join, and so. Even the same company uses different abbreviations, as there are other authors behind!
Until now, I could make models out of 6 books, the booklet is really difficult to find out, to compare to the sometimes bad pics and try to count ds and p!

So, my experience with needle tatting is really small, I just tried a small motiv I already made with the shuttle, and it worked quite well. But I prefer the shuttle, and I think we should try to continue using the same language, and just make a remark, if not usuable with needle / shuttle.

The discussion is now open, who is next? Have a nice day, here in Switzerland we got some more snow, and no sun!

Claudia

[HJ Hess]

There is nothing that says you can not use the same abbreviations for both needle and shuttle tatting, as long as one is aware that there will be some abbreviations that are not common to either.

Julia, your idea of considering needle tatting an independent technique has merit and is definitely something to consider among the Tatting Community. There is no doubt that other crafts have had the same issue to consider, especially among the different laces.
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[judijo]

I think the Bella Online has a blog about this topic. She (or whomever wrote the blog...I don't take good notes) likened it to the hand quilter vs. the user of a sewing machine or serger in building/creating quilts.

I don't think I would have gone back to tatting without being introduced to needle tatting. But I am a newbie on the topic.

I do find finer lacemaking difficult with needle tatting and may go back to shuttle tatting for the finer doilies, if I feel so compelled (I have 1000s of yards of 30 weight thread sitting around). I prefer working with larger threads/yarns...but I think that is because of my vision failing more than anything.

[Jon Yusoff]

When I wrote the book Tatting With Rings, it was for shuttles. The basic element of the book is to cover a plastic (or cabone) rings with double stitches and have rings thrown out from the double stitches around the plastic ring.
But, I was asked if the patterns can be made with needles. I have come across instructions for covering cabone rings with double stitches using needles, but not with thrown rings coming out from it. This made me think about having instructions for my rings patterns made with needles. I think I have managed to come out with such instructions and a few needle-tatters have managed to come up with their own designs with this basic element of thrown rings off plastic rings.

Another example of this is when Linda Davies put up a video of making split chain using shuttles. That video had helped a needle-tatter, Totusmel I think, to think about making split chains with needles. If I understand correctly, split chains is something that is not yet possible in needle-tatting. But, I am not familiar with needle tatting techniques so I may be wrong on this .

The point I am trying to say here is that, basically I feel needle-tatting and shuttle-tatting is complimentary of each other. While one set of instructions may be for shuttles, it has given an opportunity to develop other techniques for needles, to achieve the same look or appearance for the finished piece. At this point, there are many commonalities of shuttle and needle tatting, such as charts and terminology, that benefits both groups. And it may not be the time yet to treat each one a separate art form.

My 2 cents on this .....

[Kersti]

I think the Bella Online has a blog about this topic. She (or whomever wrote the blog...I don't take good notes) likened it to the hand quilter vs. the user of a sewing machine or serger in building/creating quilts.

What a ghastly similie! A statement like that is degrading to Needle Tatters... I hope that whoever wrote it gets a look at the brilliant work going on

[IcePrincess]

Thank you all for your input so far! I hope we will have further fruitful discussions.

I also don't like the comparison to quilting. It does not fit. Not at all.

My thoughts were not about abbreviations, not about noting down patterns. And I don't want to say that it is wrong to do shuttle tatting patterns with the needle. On the contrary - that is what the needle initially was created to do.

I was just thinking if we're not limiting the possibilities of the needle by imitating shuttle lace and shuttle techniques.

Jon may be right with saying, that it might not yet be time to differentiate. But then - why not? Isn't saying "it's too early" stopping down those who might go down a path you can't tread with a shuttle? Unfortunately I'm not good enough with the needle to go down those paths myself. My imagination is limited to such thread I can't work with a shuttle - and I haven't found many of those.

I'm really looking forward to hear more opinions.

Julia

[Kersti]

I think you'll find that over the last couple of years needle tatting has taken off in a big way. A lot more of our members have only ever needle tatted than we saw beforehand and so I expect that in the years to come the distinction will become larger in some ways.

One of the things that would be useful would be to start cataloguing patterns as needle/shuttle or both.

[ashicka]

I dont know, seems to me that just about any "shuttle only" pattern that I have tried out I have been able to do. There are a few things that take a little bit of trial and error, like split chains (which are totally doable in needle tatting.. and which I was supposed to have done a vid tut of but havent managed quite yet) or thrown rings (again with the tut vid).
The hard part is knowing what is irrelivant with needle as far as things that have to be done with the shuttle to continue with the pattern. Example being the shoe lace trick.
Personally I think that understanding shuttle techniques is a good idea for needle tatters, even if you only use needles exclusively, just so that you can understand how to translate them into your needle patterns.
I'm also going to throw out that I'm really good at translations from shuttle to needle, so if anyone needs help I'm happy to do that.

[PattyD]

I think the current blossoming of needle tatting reflects that it is a younger method. I also think that tatting in general is developing by leaps and bounds right now. Listing tatting techniques goes on for pages these days. But for me, deciding whether needle or shuttle techniques are separate arts comes down to this: the knot does not care how it is made. If you make reversed double half hitches (DS) with a core and a working thread, it's tatting. Macrame differs in using a lot more threads and knot formations and doesn't use implements in the knot formation. I think the big picture is: Tatting is Tatting.

[ashicka]

well put Patty

[AnneB]

One of the things that would be useful would be to start cataloguing patterns as needle/shuttle or both.

I would have no idea if my patterns are doable in needle even though I have done some needle tatting. My thinking is that most patterns are doable in both thechniques - you only have to think some (or a lot) if the pattern is a bit more advanced.

By the way; would diagrammed patterns need rewriting?

[FireRose]

I was just thinking if we're not limiting the possibilities of the needle by imitating shuttle lace and shuttle techniques.


So far I have been able to make any shuttle tatting pattern using needle tatting techniques but I dare any shuttle tatter to make the following motifs:

32013208

A number of years ago I scribbled a small design on a piece of paper, but had know idea how to make it. But, like the engineer that I am, I had to figure it out. After thinking about it for a while it hit me: Multiple needles. Not just one or two, but five, six, even nine or more, still with the single length of thread. Start a chain or ring on a needle, but before completing it, start and finish another chain or ring on an additional needle to be thrown off it. The above designs are made in one round using 6, 5 and 7 needles respectively.

I believe that needle tatting has far more potential than shuttle given enough time. That said, I think that both needle and shuttle tatters should be starting in the same place, with the same patterns, allowing the learners to decide which technique they enjoy the most.

FireRose

[carolivy]

Being one of those who is soley a Needle Tatter, I have not found a pattern yet that I can't figure out eventually. Some of the terminoligy is confusing, but if there is a diagram, I basically ignore the terminoligy and follow the diagram. That comes from years of crocheting to the diagram though. I keep finding new techniques that take a bit of sussing out, but I eventually figure them out. For me, with my arthritis and my fibromyalgia, Needle Tatting is the only way I will ever be able to tat and I tat with thread as fine as 120. I think like PattyD, Tatting is Tatting.

[HJ Hess]

So far I have been able to make any shuttle tatting pattern using needle tatting techniques but I dare any shuttle tatter to make the following motifs:

3201

I believe that needle tatting has far more potential than shuttle given enough time. That said, I think that both needle and shuttle tatters should be starting in the same place, with the same patterns, allowing the learners to decide which technique they enjoy the most.
FireRose
FireRose, Your attachment shows as invalid. Could you please re-load as you have made me very curious to see your multiple-needle work?
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[BlueDode]

Summary of my point of view: let it all hang out...but communicate redundantly so we can follow you and even change tooling at our own risk.

Many authors provide patterns written in redundant ways (THANK YOU!), and include a clear picture of finished work. And, they provide keys to any abbreviations and/or symbols they use. Sometimes they let us know if they used a needle, shuttle, hook, or just fingers to do a pattern, so we know the risks when we use different tooling (shuttle, needle, hook, fingers, whatever) -- and sometimes we have to figure that out. We need to know if multipe shuttles / bobbins or needles are involved, too.

Some of us are audio learners (tell me), visual (show me), and literal (write it down for me), and perhaps there are more (by osmosis, by sleeping with books under your pillow a al Edgar Cayce, second hand, by "explain it to my friend and I'll pick it up"). Some of us can adapt to learning/following instructions in forms that we do NOT prefer, and others of us NEED instructions in our prefered learning method or we'll not bother, thank you very much. There's something somewhere for all of us, but any given pattern format written with a particular set of tooling involved can challenge those of us who insist on retooling things. Learning style variability challenges uniform approaches to pattern communication.

I remember talking with a woman named Yo who sold me my hook tatting set and a hook tatting book in Japanese. She had a booth at a knitting machine seminar. She argued that visual patterns were MUCH better and allowed a greater variety of patterns than could be written in abbreviations. She pointed out a pattern and dared me to write it out in abbreviations -- I should take her challenge up some day.

Yo pointed out a beautiful, rhythmic pattern but if you had to describe in words which picot to join to, most tatters would find wrong ones and spend more time untatting than tatting. Basically, the pattern ends up as a square, but it starts in one corner and meanders to form a right triangle shape then requires mirror image tatting to complete the opposite right triangle to form the square. I've done it several times and enjoy it very much. It is a HOOK TATTING pattern, with rings and chains, that works fine with shuttles and needles!

My practice: I check ALL patterns before I embark on them to verify that:
1. They have a table of definitions for any abbreviations or symbols they use
2. That they include a clear photo or drawing or both so I can resolve confusion
3. And I prefer that they mention whether written from a needle/shuttle/hook/finger point of view so I know if I have to be alert to problems that happen when switching tooling.
4. If a pattern comes up short I asses the risks involved -- if it a convoluted pattern without enough information to keep me on track I may not bother -- or I may decide to accept the challenge.

Given the above information, whether the pattern is in English (my mother tongue), or in some other language, I can probably figure something out to make it work. If I'm not right, I'm close. I can also make it again and make changes. Sometimes in visual patterns it can be ambiguous how to tat the piece, and I'm OK with that: I may try it using different approaches.

I believe the needle or shuttle tatting controversy is richer than that just two options: instead of a SuperBowl looking for one winner of two teams, there's more of a league out there, some teams having more fans than others. Also, these teams typically don't compete against each other: competition is within the teams -- and my analogy fails.

These are techniques involving tatting that I know of:

1. Shuttle tatting (with AT LEAST 5 different methods of finger fiddling to accomplish the same thing)
2. Needle tatting - Barbara Foster's method (see her books)
3. Needle tatting - To De Haan Van Beek's method (see her book)
4. Japanaese Hook tatting
5. Finger Tatting
6. Cro Tatting
7. Multiple shuttles and/or multiple bobbins in shuttles
8. Multiple needles involved

Both Needle tatting methods and shuttle tatting methods I know cover both ring and thread space, as well as ring and chain patterns. Japanese Hook tatting: I've not tried ring and thread patterns, not sure what would happen: probably doubled or tripled thread spaces, because Japanese Hook Tatting involves doubling of the thread/yarn for the core thread and some finessing of the core thread to make chains. Both rings and chains appear "thicker" with the doubled core thread, than the single core thread methods -- shuttle and needle.

Finger tatting would be the most flexible because there is no tooling to get in the way (tooling: needle, shuttle, hook), just a major challenge keeping thread(s) untangled. This limits the size of pattern for this technique: no tablecloth doilies in size 100 thread please.

Cro Tatting typically invlved rings and crocheted (NOT TATTED) chains, plus other crochet techniques. Hook Tatting can involve BOTH tatted and crochet chains. Some very old tatting patterns include crocheted sections, too. To crochet or not to crochet: a choice, and option, not a law from my point of view.

I've seen something called a "limpet stitch" in Tunisian Crochet that is a hook tatted Josephine -- more of a half moon than a ring/picot/knot though. That said, if a Josephine is possible, so is a hook tatted ring (or half moon). If a double hooked "afghan" crochet hook is in use, tatted chains are possible, too. I digress.

Now, I'm not sure I know how to do split rings with hook tatting or cro tatting, or bridging / split chains, for that matter, or false picots -- would have to think about it. There's a bigger gulf between the single and double core thread techniques than there is needle(2 methods) and shuttle.

Split Rings in Needle tatting (Barbara Foster method): see book Celtic Tatting by Rozella Linden for a method. Needle tatters: you might need to use two needle threads (and no ball) to make this work. Split rings in Needle tatting (To De Haan Van Beek) corresponds to shuttle tatting reasonable well.

Multiple shuttles, multiple bobbins, multiple needles: what can and can't be done here I don't know: usually authors write patterns dependent on the tooling involved: switch tooling at your peril. Clear patterns are important here.

I suppose it would be possible to define things officially, like have a "National Bureau of Standards" or an ISO (International Standards Organization) spec written. This approach would have the effect of a force of law and ossification (ossified: hard and brittle) -- and would probably end up as a form of tatting "blue laws" in some ways. Excuse my slang: "blue laws" in USA mean outdated / old fashioned laws which might include jail time for things like opening up a store on Sundays and some stuff that which no longer makes sense (and maybe never did). The problem with making rules is that you need a procedure for changing rules, and changing rules can be a problematic and vonvoluted process -- ask any government official. With a standard and/or a law, hey, we could get the proverbial Tatting Police!

Anyway, I support some flexibility and understanding here, and am very thankful for the opportunity to share tatting experiences with those who write patterns -- and I support allowing them poetic license in communicating their patterns and techniqes to me. I'll try to adapt. Has anyone communicated a pattern using YouTube/video? If an author writes a pattern for shuttle tatting, and I decide to needle tat it, that becomes my problem / challenge / opportunity / learning experience. Bring it!

Thanks for listening. This is (more than) enough for now.

[Judy]

I'd been pondering the difficulties of having non-uniform symbols across the techniques and various countries of origin of our work. I think it compares fairly well with the problem you encounter in advanced mathematics. Anyone doing research to get a PhD is forced to do something no one else has done ie. be creative. In being creative, they need to develop symbols and shorthand for what they do just to keep from getting bogged down in jargon. The truly gifted work out a system that makes difficult concepts seem simple, like Richard Feynman's diagrams for some physics concepts...that I still don't understand. All advanced math books start with the symbols and terminology that the author intends to use throughout. They are not all identical, but are very similar in most cases. Now the real trick for us in this global milleu/polyglot world where we are increasingly exposed to other cultures is making our patterns independent enough of the designers home language, so that we can read the French, Finnish, Spanish, Swahili tatting patterns with little or no knowledge of the underlying language. I'm more interested in that problem than in the choice of needle vs. shuttle. Its clear that InTatters has a global reach, but unless I've missed something, its almost exclusively English. Those of you with other native tongues need to add your voice. What do you recommend? Diagrams, text, whatever. I love the little stories in Be Stitched that accompany the patterns. Do they get in the way of a Hungarian tatter?

Great discussion everyone!

[IcePrincess]

the knot does not care how it is made.
So far I agree with you. But then I thought along the lines of what FireRose is writing about working with multiple needles. Then you have completely different connections between the elements, different paths the thread will - or can - take.


I believe that needle tatting has far more potential than shuttle given enough time.
I wouldn't go to say it has far more potential, but I think it has a different potential. I'd really love to see your design to see and understand myself. Probably you are doing what is flickering through my mind every now and then.

If I could see your multi-needle-pattern I probably would try to work it out with multiple shuttles. I handled up to seven threads before when doing victorian patterns.


That said, I think that both needle and shuttle tatters should be starting in the same place, with the same patterns, allowing the learners to decide which technique they enjoy the most.
Seems sensible. Both techniques are not so difficult to learn and they can be used complementary. Think of a pattern that requires both - a shuttle and a needle.


I'd been pondering the difficulties of having non-uniform symbols
Which is not really the topic I would like to discuss in this thread. I was thinking along design lines, about possibilities.
Not about how those patterns are written/should be written or which language we use.

[carolivy]

Wow! BlueDode that was an amazing read! I have never heard of some of those techniques! My first "hint" of the Finger Tatting was when I came across a Teri Dusenbury pattern. I had absolutely NO proble translating that pattern to Needle. I have run across some patterns writtein in other languages where there are pictures and numbers where I am able to figure out how to work out the pattern. On one occassion I actually figured out that the pattern maker actually left out 1/2 of the written pattern...I was able to finish making the design just from the photograph of her finished design. I like having a diagram and a finished picture with the written pattern, then it doesn't matter what language the pattern is written in...I can usually figure out what needs to be done.

[TotusMel]

I love the 'know does not care how it is made'!

Anyway, my opinion is that they are truly complimentary techniques. I learned how to shuttle tat mostly to really understand the structure of the knot. I think there are definitely advantages to both techniques and it really comes down to which one speaks to you.

I know there are needle tatting patterns and shuttle tating patterns, but I love that they are similar enough that one can figure out how to do them with either method. The discovery and puzzle solving is half the fun for me. Honestly as far as separating them, I'm just glad they have finally come together. It was just a few years ago that I was met with the 'that's not real tatting' from nearly everyone and now I feel very welcome with my needle in hand.

[carolivy]

.... It was just a few years ago that I was met with the 'that's not real tatting' from nearly everyone and now I feel very welcome with my needle in hand.

Same here! I don't know how many times I used to get that! Some people would see me Needle Tatting and in a real snooty voice say that what I was doing was NOT Tatting! They don't say that now! I have had some even stand and watch me at shows, facsinated by the different process. I am very thankful that Needle Tatting is now being recognised as REAL Tatting!

[FireRose]

Sorry about the image. Here it is:

3210


If I could see your multi-needle-pattern I probably would try to work it out with multiple shuttles. I handled up to seven threads before when doing victorian patterns.Just to clarify there is only one length of thread with two ends as you would have in most tatting projects(minus the ball). The thread is cast onto multiple needles at one time. The closest equivalent I've seen is the self-closing mock ring in shuttle tatting except it is not limited to rings. Should you ever attempt this with a shuttle, I'd love to see your results. I do know how to shuttle tat, but have yet to figure it out. I also haven't seen anything quite like this and am unsure on the best way of writing/diagramming the pattern so that people aren't utterly confused. I guess the challenge is on.

[HJ Hess]

Sorry about the image. Here it is:

3210


NICE!!!
Is this possible to do by shuttle? Or this is one of those "needle only" endeavors?
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[BlueDode]

Firerose:

Thank you for the picture of your multi-needle motifs! Would you consider posting some instructions for one of them -- or even a simpler one -- using the pattern communication conventions of your choice? I think I would enjoy the experience and maybe others would as well.

In a sense, multiple needles removes a constraint from traditional patterns that I would describe this way: in traditional tatting, rings start and stop in the same place; chains move from one place to another; patterns can be drawn in a continuous line, composed of rings and chains, from beginning to end; you can only pick up your pen/pencil if and when the pattern says something like "cut and tie ends". This is true of most older patterns, but cannot be said of "all" patterns. Techniques that break these rules include: split rings: lines that divide in two to construct split rings: the pen/pencil has to do some doubling back to trace a split chain; celtic tatting allows the chains and rings to cross each other without joining; there are more tradition breakers, these are just a few. FireRose, your multiple needle tatting work breaks this tradition / unwritten rule / observed pattern in a major way. That's GREAT!

Artists, it is said, create their work through the limitations of their media,sometimes even exploiting them; tatters include artists and craftspeople who work within the limitations of their craft. Limitations of the shuttle are different than limitations of the needle(s); advantages of each differ as well. I can understand how we must work within the limitations of our tooling (needles-either, or shuttle, hooks, hands, whatever). It is not reasonable, though, to expect those who work with shuttles to accept the limitations of the needles, or those who work with needles to accept limitations of shuttles, hooks, or whatever. Crossover artists/crafters -- I'm one -- need to do so at their own risk when we change the tooling a pattern was designed for.

I met a woman when I was doing a tatting demo who insisted that her grandmother needle tatted (NOT shuttle tatted). She was from Lebanon. I'm not sure of the needle tatting method used, and neither was she. I haven't seen patterns from Lebanon: maybe the basics are passed from parents to children and each add their own creativity. Most of the patterns I've seen growing up came from Britain or countries around the British empire (haven't found any from Lebanon): I've made a point to try patterns from other traditions as I can find them in the US or on the net: Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Poland, and maybe some others. This train of thought reminds me of another thread on another forum on this site, on "Oya", which apparently involves a range of thread slinging tooling: it is from Turkey, if I recall correctly. I digress -- can anyone really prove if shuttle tatting is older/more proper than the newer (we think, but maybe not) needle tatting? This too causes heated arguments, but I doublt if anything can be proven scientifically, and even scientific proofs are subject to reevaluation when new data is available (but not without a fight).

Growth and development of a craft like tatting needs artists who expand our horizons: it occurs on the edges of the craft, where the discussions of what is and isn't tatting often thrive. The existence of shuttle tatting patterns that could be done with needle tatting techniques probably facilitated the growth of needle tatting here in the US in the last few decades. but there is no need to limit needle tatters to shuttle tatting patterns. Do the techniques need to split off? Not unless the "what is and isn't tatting" discussions drive off people who experiment with tooling options. As in most things, some crosspolination is needed for survival.

Even mathematicians update tooling now and then: recall Geometry dating to Euclid that uses straight lines drawn between two points, and compases for proof: recently some mathematicians added mirrors to "reflect" things -- cool: it took over two thousand years to update Euclid's tools: is it "right" or "wrong" or just different? Yet before this, non-Euclidean geometries, where parallel lines are allowed to cross, put a major wrinkle in geometrical thinking. Progress goes on!

Thanks to all for this interesting thread!

[IcePrincess]

FireRose, this is really, really beautiful. And exactly along the lines what I was thinking of. Something that will be very difficult to accomplish with shuttles if it is possible.
And this is why I thought it helpful for needle-tatters not to cling to shuttle patterns too tightly.


Should you ever attempt this with a shuttle, I'd love to see your results.
I must admit that I don't know yet how to do the chains branching off chains in the way you do. I'd be happy to have your instructions to do this by needle. It would make it easier to figure out a shuttle way. But be certain - even though time is something I don't have right now (got to get my baroque suit finished till September)- I absolutely will try.


I met a woman when I was doing a tatting demo who insisted that her grandmother needle tatted (NOT shuttle tatted).
At first Mademoiselle Riegos instructions on how to work with a needle got me confused into believing that even she needle-tatted. There are mid-to-late 19th century engravings explaining how to cro-tat. I'm fairly certain that - given the proper needle existed somewhere - people would needle-tat.


"Oya", which apparently involves a range of thread slinging tooling:
Slings, yes. But Oya definitely is a special variety of needlelace specializing in flowers.