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vividmana
07-05-2010, 10:11 PM
(Preferably patterns that are available on the web/free)

I have put my best efforts into trying Ringtrim (http://www.nuperelle.net/drager/monstre/RingtrimEng.pdf) and Paprika (http://my.att.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=267965&ck=) but as a rather unexperienced needle tatter both of these patterns have bested me. And knowing those two have bested me, I don't think Minor Norwegian Dragons (http://www.nuperelle.net/drager/monstre/MinidragerEng.pdf) would prove any better.

I am looking for a dragon pattern, that is relatively simple. Or at least, that doesn't have: a ring off of a split ring. And that is not a Chinese style dragon. Thanks!

Green Gal
08-05-2010, 12:01 PM
Do try Annes Norwegian dragons. They are very doable for needle tatters. Some times its just better to follow the diagram and ignore the shuttle directions.
Kathy

AnneB
09-05-2010, 12:38 PM
While I'm thingking on the posibillities of a simpler dragon (not sure if I can manage without using split rings or rings off chains), what is the problem with the pattern for Paprika? It is all rings and chains?

I cannot help you on the details of needle tatting, but this page (http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes2/float/throw2.html)is on throwing rings off split rings, the initial explanation is on rings off chains.
You might also find aid in this needletatting (http://needletatting.proboards.com/index.cgi)forum.

Kersti
09-05-2010, 01:13 PM
Remember too that we also have a needle tatting forum (http://www.intatters.com/forumdisplay.php?28-Needle-Tatting) area here - some needle tatters may not have read this thread but could certainly help you out.

vividmana
09-05-2010, 04:22 PM
While I'm thingking on the posibillities of a simpler dragon (not sure if I can manage without using split rings or rings off chains), what is the problem with the pattern for Paprika? It is all rings and chains?

I cannot help you on the details of needle tatting, but this page (http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes2/float/throw2.html)is on throwing rings off split rings, the initial explanation is on rings off chains.
You might also find aid in this needletatting (http://needletatting.proboards.com/index.cgi)forum.My issue with Paprika comes up at Ch: 2 - 1 - 8 (tension to curve) +LJ (LPPR)
Ch: 3 B 3 +LJ (to next R) RW SS in the pattern, I cannot seem to make that join work out smoothly. Split rings I can handle, it is a ring off of a split ring that leaves me in a tangled mess of thread.

AnneB
09-05-2010, 08:00 PM
So, the problem is the lock join? It should not be much different in neddle tatting than with a shuttle.

Here (http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes2/shtljoin.jpg)is a page at Georgia's Online tatting class, just replace the shuttle with the needle. I suspect this is what you are doing, but to make it look nice, practice is needed. Make sure to pull the chain tight before tightening the join. And practice.

Have you done throwing rings off chains? Rings off splitrings are not much different.

I just realized there might be one thing you can do in needle tatting and not with shuttles. With shuttles you can only make a ring floating on one part of a split ring. If I'm thinking correlctly you can have rings on both parts of the splitring when needle tatting - hmmm...

carolivy
09-05-2010, 08:21 PM
I just realized there might be one thing you can do in needle tatting and not with shuttles. With shuttles you can only make a ring floating on one part of a split ring. If I'm thinking correlctly you can have rings on both parts of the splitring when needle tatting - hmmm...

Yes, you can...hmmm, itneresting! Must think on this! Cool idea!

vividmana
09-05-2010, 08:27 PM
So, the problem is the lock join? It should not be much different in neddle tatting than with a shuttle.

Here (http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes2/shtljoin.jpg)is a page at Georgia's Online tatting class, just replace the shuttle with the needle. I suspect this is what you are doing, but to make it look nice, practice is needed. Make sure to pull the chain tight before tightening the join. And practice.

Have you done throwing rings off chains? Rings off splitrings are not much different.

I just realized there might be one thing you can do in needle tatting and not with shuttles. With shuttles you can only make a ring floating on one part of a split ring. If I'm thinking correlctly you can have rings on both parts of the splitring when needle tatting - hmmm...

I haven't encountered any patterns that required me to throw a ring off of a chain. I have done some looking and reading on how to, and it makes sense (mostly), but can't get it to turn out right. It ends up looking like the libra symbol- the ring never closing.

carolivy
10-05-2010, 11:02 AM
You do the ring in the Ring and Thread Metod that Barbara Foster describes in her Needle Tatting Book 1. The rings will always close then.

Judy
10-05-2010, 07:23 PM
Let me try this thrown ring thing. Here's how I do it. Its the same whether its off a ring, chain, split ring -- either side -- any base element. Directions for right handed tatters.
Do regular stitches in the base up to the point where you want to add the thrown ring.
Dig out a second tatting needle of the same size if you have one. If not, see below. Put it on top of the other needle almost on top of the last ds, making an "X" with the needles. New needle points up & left, eye at the lower right.
Hold the two needles in that position with your right hand while you make one or two ds with the ball thread on the top needle (use the same thread you were using to make the double stitches on needle 1). Don't leave any gaps. You'll get one that's about the diameter of the needle anyway.
At this point you can let go of needle 1 so that you have that hand available for making any necessary picots on needle 2. Finish the thrown ring double stitches. Now, you must thread needle 2 with the same thread you were just using. Close needle 2 == the thrown ring should close all the way without problems (excluding tangles of course). You may unthread the needle, or not, but you'll now resume making base stitches on the first needle with the same thread. Your core thread doesn't come into play until you close these first needle stitches.

The need to thread the 2nd needle means you have to cut it off the ball. Plan accordingly so that you'll have enough thread to comfortably work the rest of the stitches -- either to finish it, or a good point to add thread.

In the Celtic tatting book (green cover) from handy hands there's a cross that's constructed with three thrown rings off a central ring and then a bunch of split rings down to the bottom of the cross. It can be done. They suggest threading two needles to start with. I get confused on which is which, so I don't thread the 2nd needle until its essential.

(I suppose it could be a sharp pointed one if that's all you have. It just needs to be long enough to hold the thrown ring stitches.) If you absolutely don't have a second needle, I suppose you can remove the stitches from the first needle so that the needle is available to make the thrown ring, but I don't recommend it. If you pull them off and don't knot it, they're going to splay, twist and get loose while you're doing the thrown ring and it will be hard to get the tension right. If you do knot it, its no longer a thrown ring, but a chain, ring, chain sequence. You'd need something to keep those stitches tight. Then after you finish the thrown ring you'd be using that same needle to finish the base. Closing the base should bring them into line, but as I've never tried that, I wouldn't suggest it. Shudder!

Judy
10-05-2010, 07:28 PM
Post script.
I just spent the weekend trying to figure out what I was doing wrong in making roses and lock joins, and picots for the next round. You don't get different results until you change how you're doing it. Amazing! I now think I finally have my lock joins correct. Ah such ignorance when I thought they were right before..:blush:

carolivy
10-05-2010, 11:37 PM
Hi Judy, I always take my stitches off my needle when I am doing a thrown ring. I have never run into the problems you cited either. I do have 2 of the same size needles, but I usually have several projects going, so don't usually have 2 of the same SIZE needles available for a single project. I snug the chain up just a bit that I am throwing the ring off of, but I do not knot it. I did one of the Round Robin doilies that has thrown rings (lots of them!) and this is the way I did them all.

Judy
11-05-2010, 02:27 AM
That's great to know. I'll try it next time. Thank you. Where in the vast world of needle tatting did I read a side comment by a designer that she does things which require 3,4,5 or more needles. What could that possibly be? Split chain off split chain off split ring...? Maybe I was projecting that if this took two...?

Judith Connors
13-05-2010, 06:12 AM
I know that you are needle tatting, but should you wish a dragon pattern in shuttle tatting, try Pam Palmer's 'Tatting Treats' series.