Spiral Chain

[coretta]

Ok I have tatted for a while now, but all shuttle, recently learned needle because I thought I would be able to do that spiraling chain with the needle (and not shuttle). However, when I slid it off the needle the spiral got really tight on itself and ended up making a bracelet instead of a necklace chain. So can it be done with needle? What am I doing wrong? I was using #5-0 needle and 10 thread. For all intents and purposes this should be a right pairing.

I was able to make the chain as I had hoped... but with the shuttle. :smile:

[Judy]

#5 needle sounds a bit small for # 10 thread. Are you tying the two threads after each ring or chain? I haven't done the pattern, so I'm really guessing, but if its mostly one long chain, you may need to put in a lock stitch from time to time just to keep the tension as you want it on each part.

[coretta]

There is no pattern, just doing the first half of the double stitch over and over and over and it creates a spiral. I just gave the chain to my mother... without taking a picture of course... I'll try and get another one done and show the comparison. There are no rings...lock stitch? I don't yet know how to do that in needle tatting.

[Lynn]

I can't help you with the needle tatting, but if the chain worked with the shuttle, then why do the needle? I'd stick with what works.

[lalou]

Hi Coretta, needle tatter here (only been tatting for 9 months now) but have tackled this:) you have to give yourself enough thread to slide the sticthes off, to little thread tight stitches! You have your core thread or needle thread which is the thread your stitches are on, and then the ball thread or auxillary thread, this is the thread you have to have enough of to slide your stitches off on. I do a lot of trial and error tatting LOL but just can not put it down! i just finished my second pair of baby booties, these were a little tricky but mastered them (omg-----ing all the way LOL) Sometimes i have to put my tatting down and look at it this way and then look at it that way and then pick it up again and start tatting again. Just amazed at what this needle and thread can do and make:) i know i ramble but hope i help by putting my 2 cents in.

[rain]

Ok I just checked out my learn to needle tat book and this is actually a Josephine Knot (just the first half of a ds) And they dont really talk about it much..... but in the pattern under it says to work off the ball then slide off the stitches and pull snug... avoid pulling so tightly that it chain curves back on itself. ... When I tried this I did a few then slid them off just under the needle then made some more... Size 5 needle is fine for a 10 thread also.

[coretta]

I can't help you with the needle tatting, but if the chain worked with the shuttle, then why do the needle? I'd stick with what works.

Because I am a curious sort of person, and I figure that it can be done with needle, and it's the whole reason I bothered to learn needle so until I figure it out.... I suppose learning needle will feel like a waste to me.

[PattyD]

Well, I did try it with a needle and I translated what I do with the shuttle to what I do with needle. I make 4-7 half stitches and then take the working thread over the needle in the direction that the spiral is going (since that's where it wants to go anyway). Also, if you want a LONG spiral chain, don't take all the stitches off the needle and then make some more, this can cause a loss of tension and a lump in the spiral. I worked until the needle was almost full and then just slid off about a third of the stitches. My thinking is to simply eliminate the stress and since the new stitches are nice and cozy next to other stitches that are already done, there shouldn't be a problem.

Finally, the stitches on the needle needle to be held securely while you take them off the needle. The half stitches are a little more fragile than the double stitch, maintaining the position of the stitches as you move the needle out and away from them will help to preserve the spiral. Trying to re-form the spiral after removing the work from the needle is a no win way to do it.

[BlueDode]

<snip>...the spiral got really tight on itself...<snip> :smile:

In my mind's eye, I see a chain / spiral that got "overtightened" -- too short of core/needle thread makes for too tight of spiral.
You can pull more core thread back into the spiral / chain by stretching the tatting stitches/hitches back down the needle/core thread: hold the start of the spiral/chain with one hand and gently pinch the stitches to work them back down the core/needle thread.

The result will probably be too loose, but you can fiddle with it by taking some core/needle thread out of the spiral/chain and redistributing the stitches. Think of finger pressing or finger blocking, or finger shaping, more or less.

You can also pull stitches/hitches off the tatting needle a bit at a time to leave more core thread -- it is fiddly.

For some projects, I like tight spirals, for others looser ones, but hey, two antenna of a butterfly must match!

If you have pix of what you liked and what you didn't, and can post them, we could get a better idea of what is happening.

[Judith Connors]

As there is no second half-stitch to balance the tension in Josephines, you will find the the thread will tend to spiral around the core thread --> spiral tatting (another name for Josephine chains). Perhaps it would be better to use a coarser thread as the core. Depending on which half-stitch you choose, the spiral will twist in the opposite direction.

[coretta]

It's when I pull the stitches off that the spiral goes from perfect to right on top of itself.... Here is what I am going for:46434644

Here is what I got.46334645

[Lynn]

It looks like your core thread is too short. I don't know enough about needle tatting to say definitely, but perhaps you need to pull very slowly and be sure you have enough space between your stitches before you actually slide them off the needle. Just a shot in the dark. If you could send a PM to Pamela, I know she can help you, if she has time. She's an excellent needle tatter.

[coretta]

Now it says that my links are invalid... why did it post the pictures as attachments.... anyway here they are again:
What I was going for:4667

and what I got:4666

[BlueDode]

coretta:

Thanks for the effort with the pix: the resolution (dots per inch) is too few on these thumbnails for me to see in detail what's up, but I haven't posted pix here and can't tell you how to post pix with higher resolution. That said, I'm going to hazard another guess here, which may be entirely off base, so ignore me if you need to.

There's something called zig zag tatting (and I think there are other terms for it as well) which is done like this, for example:
...1. tat the first half of the double stitch 4 times
...2. tat the second half of the double stitch 4 times
...3. repeat steps 1 and 2 a few times.
The result is a ruffle of sorts, that if you try to flatten it as much as you can, you still get a wavy (not spiral) edge made by the "tops" of the hitches (halves of the double stitch).

There's another way to get a spiral (not a wavy) edge to tatting: after tatting several of the same halves of the double stitch in a chain structure, start with the work flat/untwisted and twist it a specified number of timesj before joining the chain structure back to the body of your work so that it can't untwist.

Coretta, I still may be missing your point, and I'm sorry about that. If you can post anything else, I'll keep watching this thread and will check it out.

Good luck!

[Lynn]

This is just weird. Yesterday, the links in the 11th post worked just fine. Today, those links are broken. Coretta, did you do something else to them after you posted the links?

BlueDode, you can tell (or you could) from the links that she is working on a Josephine chain. The problem is that the stitches twist around too close together.

Now, that gives me an idea, Coretta. Did you try UNtwisting the chain? You are more tenacious than I. I'd just go back to my shuttles. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I did. :ermm: Hope your patience and persistence pay off soon.

[StephanieGrace]

I'm new to all of this, but I'm wondering if you tried using Victorian Sets? (10 of the first half stitch followed by ten of the second from what I understand.). I used it on a "necklace" that I made last week [?] when trying out split rings and it may be more of what you're looking for? I could be wrong, of course, LOL, but it might be worth a shot. This is what I ended up with when doing the Sets. I think I did maybe five sets on either side and ended up with a 14" chain. It could also be just pulling it too tight... Like I said, I'm new to this all, but I couldn't help but offer my meager suggestion... *blushes* Here's the image:
4839

Hope it helps (or at least you have fun trying it out!) ;-)

-Stephanie Grace
http://stephaniegracetats.blogspot.com

[BlueDode]

coretta:
StephanieGrace's post shows "Victorian Sets" -- that's another term for what I called zig zag tatting in a previous post.

[StephanieGrace]

Oops... Sorry 'bout that. I read most of the posts, then skimmed the rest. *blushes* Sorry. (Swell job I did with my first post on this website! LOL).

-Stephanie Grace
http://stephaniegracetats.blogspot.com

I just read the post you were talking about, but I want to include that this does actually spiral. It could just be the count of the stitches that differentiate from "zig zag" and spiral, though. ;-) I think. LOL.

[PattyD]

Steph, you posted and that's what matters and it was right on topic and useful. If I went and hid every time I repeat what someone else says, I would live in the closet!

[StephanieGrace]

Ya got room in that closet, Patty? LOL. Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. ;-) Forums are always weird to me because I feel like I'm eavesdropping on conversations, but I know that I'm not. LOL. Since I just joined about maybe two hours ago, I'm still just nosing my way around and trying to get used to everything. From experiences before joining, I can honestly say that members of the tatting community are some of the kindest people that I have ever been fortunate enough to talk to. I think that's another thing that makes me want to keep going with tatting, no matter how frustrated I get... I know that tatters support each other and that I'll be able to find help if I need it. It's an amazing thing to feel so comforted. If I felt like this with all endeavors, I should be locked in a closet! LOL.

There I go rambling... I do that a lot. *blushes* LOL

Thank you again, Patty!

-Stephanie Grace
http://stephaniegracetats.blogspot.com

[coretta]

This is just weird. Yesterday, the links in the 11th post worked just fine. Today, those links are broken. Coretta, did you do something else to them after you posted the links?

BlueDode, you can tell (or you could) from the links that she is working on a Josephine chain. The problem is that the stitches twist around too close together.

Now, that gives me an idea, Coretta. Did you try UNtwisting the chain? You are more tenacious than I. I'd just go back to my shuttles. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I did. :ermm: Hope your patience and persistence pay off soon.

I didn't do anything to the links. this keeps happening... but at least the second set of pics worked... :) I have seen the Zigzag or Josephine chaine, aka ruffle, though I haven't tried that with a needle yet, so I don't know if it would act the same for me or not. And I did try untwisting the spiral after taking it off the needle, it didn't work for me. :(

STEPHANIEGRACE, I like what you worked up with the chain. and the picture is good as illustration. The fact that you can do victorian without it getting all tight makes me think I am doing something wrong since the two aren't so different.

I think I need to go back to the beginning and relearn needle tatting and maybe i can get this.

[Lynn]

When you get it sorted, Coretta, let us know. We're cheering for you.

[Green Gal]

Check out TotusMels needle tatted necklace on Instructables. Her pictures and diagrams show clearly and easily 'how to' . I think she has 3 patterns the flower and necklace are beginner -the mask well enter at your own peril.

[carolivy]

Thank you SO much Stephanie for that great pic on the Victorian Sets! I have a pattern calling for the Zig Zag Tatting and I just could not wrap my head around how to achieve that! Now I can do the pattern correctly!

[coretta]

Check out TotusMels needle tatted necklace on Instructables. Her pictures and diagrams show clearly and easily 'how to' . I think she has 3 patterns the flower and necklace are beginner -the mask well enter at your own peril.

Totus mel's instructables is how I "learned" the needle tatting. That's likely the one I will go back to...i think I also used agasunset's too

[Judy]

Well, we all ramble from time to time, so no blushes warranted for that! Now on topic, I've not tried sets of ten much. I didn't like the way they looked after I did them. They were on napkin rings and I couldn't get the joins to work right. Short sets do become ruffles. There's a ruffled heart pattern that they look great on. I wouldn't call either of these spirals though. I thought spirals were all in one direction. They would twist on the needle if you let them, or encourage them to. Decide how many twists you need. Don't pull it too tight when you close or you'll get extra twists you don't want.

[patrice]

I agree with Judith.I am a needle tatter and have fiddled with josephine knots a few times.Making the first half of the stitch-over and over has a tendency to twist.I find that a gentle untwisting between stitches helps.Let the thread do what it wants to unwind...then keep going.If the thread is twisted when you close the chain-it will be twisted when it is finished.

[HJ Hess]

Spiral chains are a challenge if you are working with overly-twisty thread.
.

[DJtatt]

I am getting confused by the terms being used in this thread. rain calls the first half of a ds a Josephine Knot, and Judith Connors calls this spiral tatting Josephine chains. From my Ashley Book of Knots I seem to remember a Josephine Knot as a decorative, two dimensional (flat) knot with basically interlinked loops. Can someone on the site that knows more about terms enlighten on what exactly a Josephine Knot or Josephine chain is? Or even better, who is Josephine and how did this name come to be associated with knots?

Seems like with needle tatting, this technique (Zig-Zag or Victorian Sets) is a lot trickier to do than it is with a shuttle. Good for you coretta for not giving up and sticking with the needle. Let us know how it goes.

[Judith Connors]

DJtatt, tatting has such a rich vocabulary. The following may help.

1. A spiral chain is formed by using either of the half-stitches continually. This produces a twist around the core thread. It is also called 'Josephine chain', 'twisted tatting' on a chain, 'spiral tatting'.
2. A spiral ring is formed in like manner. When the ring is closed there will be a twist around the core thread. NOTE: This is not a Josephine ring. See (5) for this.
3. Victorian sets (aka zig-zag, rick-rack tatting) are composed of alternating groups of half-stitches, e.g. 4 first half-stitches followed by 4 second half-stitches, followed by 4 first half-stitches, etc. There will be a zig-zagging effect along the core thread. Victorian sets can be used on chains or rings.
4. Node stitch is a line of Victorian sets viewed from the reverse side.
5. A Josephine ring (aka Josephine picot, dot) can be tatted as decoration on a chain, using the auxiliary thread/shuttle. The JR consists of 8-12 half-stitches. Draw it closed carefully as there should be just a tiny dot of space in the centre. It should lie flat and neat, like a picot.
A JR can also be used in old traditional patterns which use one shuttle only, as in Irish Wheels. The JR is used to break up longish length of exposed threads, i.e. it is a decorative element in space where it is really a 'dot' in the lace. Worked in fine thread, #80 or #100, JRs are really great.

[DJtatt]

Thanks for the explanations Judith. I produced a small embellishment to Jon's folding bookmark which I think of as a Josophine knot (in extra long picots). Once I figure out how to post pics to this site I'll show what it looks like. It is what I learned as a Josophine Knot from another part of my life, so perhaps there is more than one such knot.

[tatknot]

Thanks for the explanations Judith. I produced a small embellishment to Jon's folding bookmark which I think of as a Josophine knot (in extra long picots). Once I figure out how to post pics to this site I'll show what it looks like. It is what I learned as a Josophine Knot from another part of my life, so perhaps there is more than one such knot.

The FAQ has good instructions for how to upload pictures to your album. Once you have them in the website, it is easy to put them in your posts. I really look forward to seeing what you've done. It sounds different from anything I've seen before.

[Judith Connors]

A Josephine knot is a JR with fewer stitches, so that when it closes it forms a lumpy knot rather than a flat ring.