Question: tatting thread WPI?

[trampledbygeese]

Is there a chart with the wraps per inch (WPI) of different tatting thread sizes?

I need to know the sizes of the threads (so I can buy some online) but I have no immediate access to tatting threads of any kind. Could someone please tell me the WPI of sizes 10, 20, 30 and 40? I would be ever so grateful.

thank you.

ps. you can figure wraps per inch by wrapping a thread around a ruler (or inch gage) and counting how many times it wraps in one inch.

[Josie Passell]

I don't know of a specific chart of tatting threads, but Brenda Paternoster has produced a book with lots of updates and reprints as new threads come on the market, for bobbin lace makers. This is widely available in the U.K. at lace days and probably from her.

[carolivy]

I thought the WPI corresponded to the size of the thread. I could be wrong though.

[PattyD]

Wraps per inch (WPI) allows different thread to be compared. The process is quite simple. Take a pencil or something long and thin like it and wrap the thread around it with each wrap right next to each other. Brenda Paternoster measures 1 centimeter of wraps and then counts the wraps. To be able to compare your wrap count to hers, you would have to use 1 centimeter as your measure. If you just wanted to keep your own measures, you can use any measure you want.

I keep her books because they are a quick shortcut to determining if what I have is usable for what I want to do. (There are a lot of older bobbin lace patterns that specify "interesting" threads.) But most bobbin lace threads are quite tiny for tatting. The books also cover some weaving threads, metallics, silk, cotton and linen. Getting a copy of her book would depend on how many unusual threads you like to use.

Also, generally, 3,4 and 6 ply tatting cottons have a pretty uniform numbering system (5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100, 150). Turkish threads are the only ones with different numbering that come to mind. Turkish 50 is equivalent to DMC 30). Tatters also use pearl cotton, which is designed as an embroidery thread and has very low twist (that means it's a floss thread). It's size numbers are completely different (3, 5, 8, 12, 16). I don't have much experience with other european threads that are not sold in the US. There are some south american threads too, and I know nothing about their numbering.

I have wrapped some threads I have on hand and will post it shortly.

[Marty]

I thought the WPI corresponded to the size of the thread. I could be wrong though.

That's exactly what I thought! So size 20 thread would be 20 wraps and size 10 would be 10 wraps. I don't believe it corresponds to any numbering system for things like perle cotton, though--don't know how they decide on numbers for those!

[trampledbygeese]

That's exactly what I thought! So size 20 thread would be 20 wraps and size 10 would be 10 wraps.

Really? In that case, wouldn't 20 be a thick sock yarn and 10 be somewhere between fingerling and worsted (as a knitter would say)? I didn't know people tatted with that thick a yarn. I just measured my sock yarn and it's at 24 wpi so that would be finer than a size 20 tatting thread. Somehow that seems counter-intuitive to me.

Like I said, I have absolutely no tatting resources, books, threads or the like (except a couple of shuttles and what the internet tells me). That's why I want to buy some thread, but I want to make certain that I get the right size. Wraps per inch seems to be the only semi-accurate way to compare tatting threads to thread/yarns used by other crafts without actually having the thread in front of you.



I'm looking forward to seeing what PattyD comes up with.

[Ridgewoman]

We tatters tat with all sorts of thread. Tatting thread, as I understood it when I began, was size 80 and smaller (is that correct PattyD)? Size 20 used for tatting thread (Like Lisbeth and other 'common' brands on line) are not as thick as sock wool (I actually knitted in another life ~ I was 14). Size 10 is larger ~ the smaller the number the larger the thread. I'd advise getting size 20, unless you are just learning and then I'd use 10 for a few things, so I could see how the thread "works". What a ds looks like when it forms et cetera. I worked with 20 quite a few years; then switched to 30, 40, and 50. I've done some 80 but need new glasses and can't see right now well enough for that fine a thread. I have a sample of 120....it is like hair!!!! LOL
Sharon Briggs did a comparison chart and it's posted somewhere on her site...

[PattyD]

Here's of list of thread wraps / cm of threads that I just happen to have


Thread Size # Plies Wraps
DMC cordonnet 40 6 24
DMC cordonnet 60 6 27
DMC cordonnet 80 6 30
DMC Pearl Cotton 12 2 20
Flora 10 6 12
Flora 20 6 16
Lizbeth 10 6 17
Lizbeth 20 6 23
Manuela 10 6 14
Olympus 40 6 21
Omega 30 6 21
Valdani Pearl Cotton 8 2 11 Valdani size 8 tats about the same as DMC 5 pearl cotton

[PattyD]

Wraps per centimeter are not directly related to the size number of the thread. The size number of the thread is a manufacturers designation of how long a thread of a certain thickness can be made from a given weight of cotton. The weight and length values vary between types of thread, which is why cordonnet has sizes 10-150 by tens and pearl cotton is 3, 5, 8 ,12, and 16.

Wraps are measuring the width of the thread so the fewer the wraps, the thicker the thread.

[carolivy]

Thanks for that Patty. In your chart, I understand the first number is the size of the thread and the last number is the number of wraps. Would the middle number then be how many cm was used to achieve the set number of wraps? I have some machine embroidery thread that I have tatted with that I am curious as to what size it works out in tatting thread.

[trampledbygeese]

Thank you Patty, excellent chart.
I can see why tatters use cm instead of inches for measuring wraps.

How about people who sell hand dyed tatting thread on etsy? If they said they have size 10, 20, 30 &c. tatting thread, where do you think that would fall on the list?

[PattyD]

Almost all the hand dyers use DMC cordonnet. It's a very high quality, consistent thread and available in bulk lots. So my DMC cordonnet numbers are good for HDT, too. Hand Dyers who don't use DMC, use equally high quality cordonnet, too. The size numbers are consistent for all the threads usually used for dyeing. If not the HDT sellers should say what they used and how it compares in size. When they quote a size like 20 or 80 or 10, those are standard numbers.

[PattyD]

Carol, the chart didn't print very well. The first number is the size of the thread as labeled by the manufacturer. The second number is the number of plies, the number of plies has an effect on the softness of the thread. As you can see I don't have any 3 ply threads, which I find to be much too soft to suit me. Pearl cotton is another whole thing altogether and only has 2 plies, but the plies are much thicker than the plies in the cordonnet. Pearl cotton is also a "floss" thread (floss means not a lot of twists in the thread). Cordonnet (which translates roughly as twisted like rope) is very twisted (but not evil~ just twirled a lot). That means it does not compress easily, which is a good thing for making beautiful tatting knots.

[carolivy]

I wonder if the same size, regardless of the ply would correspond to the same number of wraps. Unfortunately, I haven't got any 6 ply thread at the moment. I really do need to use up (3) 50 gallon totes full of crochet thread before I go buying anymore threads and all of these threads are 3 ply. I have only tried 6 ply once, as I have some of Yarnplayer's HDT and personally, I can't see that much difference in the way it tats up versus the 3 ply.

[waterdew]

This thread had really helped me understand the sizing of threads - I too have a problem wondering which thread to buy online. If it doesn't have a number I recognise for thread size, I am lost.

[soyloquesoy]

Thank you so much Patty! This was extremely helpful!

[soyloquesoy]

I add the threads I have:

Thread Size # Plies Wraps/cm
DMC Pearl Cotton 8 2 14
DMC Pearl Cotton 5 2 10

I think it would be a great idea to have this table stickied or made into an article, for easy reference! I see articles can have html code, and I have the table all formatted for that. I don't see how to create and article, I guess Kersti has the power to do it?

[Marty]

This is good information. But I must be a thread heathen. I don't generally care what size the thread is, or what the pattern calls for. I just use what I want -- usually depending on color!

[soyloquesoy]

I'm with you Marty! I can only get those two kinds, anyway, so my choices are easier!

But, I must say I like *knowing* things :)

[trampledbygeese]

This is good information. But I must be a thread heathen. I don't generally care what size the thread is, or what the pattern calls for. I just use what I want -- usually depending on color!

That's what I've been doing.

It's just that this time around I'm tatting for the fair and I don't want the object to be too big. I would rather have it too small, but I don't want to use a microscope to see the thread.

It sure would be nice to be able to compare threads/yarns of different crafts. I wish there was some way of standardizing the description so that a person of one craft can automatically know what qualities, sizes &c. that the other craft uses. TPI and ply are useful, but not much. WPI seem to be the best way of comparing size, but does nothing to describe the hand. Grist (length to weight ratio) is almost useless because of the different fibre content and you have to be extremely well acquainted with all the different fibres (and ways of processing), including different breeds of sheep and cotton as they each have their own weight, which is almost impossible.

So, I guess the question is, how do you accurately describe tatting threads to someone who has never, ever seen one before? Someone like me, who knows yarn construction, but not a thing about tatting yarns/thread.

[ldr103]

All the various sizes of threads and yarns kill me. I mean, tatting threads are seemingly arbitrary numbers, weaving yarns are based on ply and twists per inch, and knitting yarns are description based. Maybe we should make all the yarn/thread companies measure the width of stuff in micrometers, so we can have some consistency.

[PattyD]

There is a thread/yarn system that is direct (bigger thread has a bigger number) and universal, it is called TEX. Unfortunately it is only slowly making its way through all the textile manufacturers. I see quilting threads with it sometimes. Maybe the next generation of needle workers won't have to decipher all these antiquated numbering systems.

[soyloquesoy]

one would need lots of adjectives to properly describe thread, though, wouldn't one?

[Lynn]

one would need lots of adjectives to properly describe thread, though, wouldn't one?

Oh, goody, yes! All kinds of adjectives for every aspect of the thread. Quality, appearance, feel as a length of thread, feel after being tatted, how it retrotats.... so many different aspects. But after reading what themadtatter has to say in her thread Tatting and Tea... (http://www.intatters.com/showthread.php?2412-Tatting-and-TEA.........LOTS-OF-TEA%21%21%21),
The Mad Tatter is having 4th beaker of tea and decides that the Lizbeth size 20 in Tutti Fruitti tastes the nicest but is not quite as filling as the size 10 in Grape Pizzaz......... I am now waiting for flavored threads! Brand new adjectives needed for these ones including taste, smell and how they make you feel. :shock: But I'm not sure I want to tat something that someone else may want to eat!

[PattyD]

Lynn, what if flavored threads were like the Any Flavored candy in Harry Potter? Doesn't bear thinking about.

[Lynn]

But Patty, that would be perfect, as long as the flavor was directly proportional to the quality of the thread. Easy way to know whether you want to tat with it or not. Just take a small nibble and there you are.

And now our brief sojourn into the twilight zone of tatting is coming to an end. . . . . . . . .

[Fox Tats]

PattyD, Your knowledge base constantly amazes me! Very eclectic skill set you have!
Fox : )

[PattyD]

I read the entire children's library in Oxnard, California. Especially archeology. There was a couple of summers when I practically lived there, including the time my mother called the cops to report me missing and had to call them back when I sauntered into the house at 4:30pm. I was about 10 years old.

[Judith Connors]

Thread numbering also bears a correlation to the weight of the thread.
WPI is a guide, but you will find that different manufacturers produce slightly different thicknesses in threads of the same number. Soft threads (DMC) also squash together more than firmer ones (Coats).
Dyeing also affects the thicknesses. Black threads are a good example.
Individual tatter's tension will also alter the finished product.
Use a basic medallion pattern and tat up samples with your different threads. Use these as points-of-reference when you buy a new thread.