View Full Version : Bare Thread Dilemma
First posted 3 January 2009:
Happy New Year, on this, the third day of 2009. Thought I'd stir things up a bit with a complaint and two queries.
The complaint: I really don't like bare thread in my tatting. I've tatted plenty of patterns that go like this: make a ring. RW. leave 1/4" thread. Make another ring. RW. Repeat. It's that 1/4" bare thread that makes me kinda nuts. Realize, dear tatting friends, that I know I'm a bit flaky about a lot of things, so I don't need good folks telling me about design elements and construction and all that. I know! I just don't like it.
Query # 1: Is there anyone else out there who shares this particular dislike? I hate feeling all alone. (Notice the trembling lower lip, the misty eyes, the quivering nostrils...)
Query # 2: What have any of you, if there are any of you like me, done about this, apart from avoiding these kinds of patterns? (The reason I've done them at all is that I like the pattern overall, just not the bare thread part.) I've thought about, and been too lazy to implement, using a tatted chain up the point of the next ring, instead of just leaving the thread bare. You know, just a couple of ds's could do the trick. I think it could work just fine. IF I just get un-lazy enough to just give it a try. Does anyone have any other suggestions? I'm up for madcap and insane as well as tried and true.
Lynn - who is doing more knitting than tatting at the moment, thanks to a visit of an old friend, Art Hritis.
Reply by PattyD 3 January 2009:
That naughty old Artie! He bites me, too! But I don't think he likes me as much as you LOL!
I am not crazy about bare threads, although occasionally they actually work OK. But I don't like them to stand out. Take Hens and Chicks for instance, a classic pattern that uses bare threads. I have seen it worked with the bare threads so tight they would plink if you plucked them. Not good, distorts everything and all you notice are those suffering and exposed bare threads. And they are also not effective if the the bare threads are too loose (Too Loose TheThread?) So bare threads, in my opinion, should make the pattern float and that takes some good control, which comes down to forming the first DS after a gap precisely where it will be beautiful and not one silly millimeter off. I think that's what makes the bare thread difficult. Also, anytime a measurement is contained in a pattern for the length of the bare thread, I guarantee it will simply not suit me, my tension or anyone else's. So I think bare threads are a pain because, really, they are hard to do well and effectively.
Leaving enough space for beautiful work also affects clovers. Not enough space between the rings and they scrunch up or overlap. Too much space and they sort of sag. Again those bare thread are very difficult to control. In the beginning of my tatting life, I tried to choke clovers to death. Ugly, ugly, ugly. The core thread exits one ring and needs a tiny length to turn around the width of 2 lines of DS. Sigh.....
More than any other thread art, I think Tatting can be quite temperamental. What drives me nuts is that one day everything sings and the next day the same pattern snags.
It's a control thing, sometimes I control the thread and sometimes it controls me!
Reply by TattingChic 3 January 2009:
I think I share your dislike of bare threads. I tend to gravitate toward the designs that don't have them. Mostly because I'm not good at eyeballing longer lengths of threads and making them uniform and I'm not about to measure EVERY single bare thread in the design. I like my tatting to just "shuttle" along (pun intended) rather quickly and I don't like to be hindered by having to pick up any extra tools than I have (thus, Aero's are my fave shuttle because the hook is built right in). That said, I did do a hankerchief edging once that had the bare thread as the main design element throughout the entire lot of round motifs that went around the turn-of-the-century motif pattern (turn of the last century, that is). Anyway, I won a Grand Champion of Lace Arts at the county fair for it the year I entered it. It is very pretty and something I'm quite proud of, but I'm not in any rush to do something like again that anytime soon! I think that they are pretty, but I avoid them out of the desire to tat something more convenient that looks more uniform when I tat them...thus you won't see much mignonette tatting from me, LOL! Who knows, maybe later I'll get better at eyeballing the longer lengths of threads and I'll put them out like hotcakes, but not for now!
Reply by Karia 3 January 2009:
I have to agree with the others here. I dislike to _make_ designs with a lot of bare thread, because I find it difficult to get uniform length on bare threads. My mignonette tatting doesn't look very nice. _But_ I love the look of it though, it seems many people are able toget them pretty *envious* - I can't even get them right when I use measurement tools.
If you want to make a design that have this element incorporated perhaps it would be possible to make the rings larger and thus minimize the bare threads?
Reply by tatt3r 3 January 2009:
I am usually very quiet on this forum, but I'm going to play devil's advocate today. (grin)
I love, Love, LOVE shuttle only, or rings only tatting! It's an early technique that requires a surprising number of tatting skills.
When you eliminate the chains, you end up having to concentrate on the various elements of the ring. The sizes of joining picots as well as decorative picots are as important as the length of thread between the rings - it all contributes to the spacing. Even how you close your ring is important, since you must control the size and shape of your ring when you do. Any variation in your rings stands out like finger smudges on white thread.
So don't avoid shuttle only tatting, celebrate it as an opportunity to sharpen your skills. It's not as fancy as learning split rings or split chains, but there is a definite learning curve. It takes a lot of thread to tat all those rings, so load your shuttle with #80 thread and see how many inches it takes for you to get something that looks good. It's a challenge!
PS - I have discovered that when I close my rings, the thread between stretches a bit. For real accuracy, leave your space a bit short and it will stretch to the right length when you close your ring.
disclaimer - I'm not trying to start a flame war, think of me as a cheerleader. Rah, Rah, Go Rings!
Reply by AnneB 3 January 2009:
I don't like to tat patterns with bare threads either, even though I have done it and enjoy working with one thread only. I guess exercise would help but to get that exercise I would have to tat using bare threads and I don't want to – I spy a bad circle here :-)
My problem with bare thread is that the measure is given for one kind of thread and I usually don't use the same and as the thread size changes, the space need to change too. And if I have the same size thread I am too lazy to calculate from a fraction of inches to millimetre which I need to do to be able to judge the space needed.
There are a lot of nice looking patterns using bare thread and the bare thread make them look more like spiders web. But to tat them? It tends to be "later".
A crazy idea: what about having the markings of 10 mm or similar tattooed on the left index finger to help getting picot size and bare thread space right? (No – relax - I won't do it, just a crazy idea.)
Reply by Valerie 3 January 2009:
i know bare threads were used in early designs because people didn't know how to tat a chain. but honestly, it's really difficult to get the lengths right. i don't hate bare thread tatting, but will avoid these patterns if i can.
p.s. i have a ufo that's supposed to be a bag, but because of the uneven lengths of threads in between, it's been abandoned for quite a long time (approx 2 years!) i couldn't bear to see the horrible drooping thread-betweens... LOL
Reply by TattingChic 3 January 2009:
LOL! I have a UFO that is a pattern of just rings with bare thread and needle lace in the center where the rings point inward on the round motifs.
Hmmmm...speaking of "threads" I'm glad this thread of discussion got started, LOL! It's got me thinking about some old projects I've done...gonna have to dig them out and post 'em on my blog, LOL! Maybe I can round up some help with getting one particular UFO finished. The tatting is done, but it needs to be attached to fabric and has a very unusual center. It won't just fit on a regular round linen center. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Reply by Susan B. T. 4 January 2009:
There are patterns that just call for bare thread.... one shuttle patterns are some.....
I have done Wedding hankies with one thread... and they are lovely... check out the pics on my web page.... I am doing another one now... but do not have pictures yet......
For the delicate look of one thread rings only pattern the chain would take away from it and make it look heavy... that is just my humble opinion.
Reply by Lynn 4 January 2009:
Thank you all for your input. I should have made more clear in the beginning that I really do know how do this work. I've never had any problem that I remember in executing a single shuttle pattern. My problem is that I don't really like the way it looks. (Apologies to tatt3r and Susan B. T.) I sincerely respect those who have different opinions even if I don't share them, and I thoroughly enjoy looking at others work. I've seen some single shuttle work that is really lovely for the most part. I just feel that the lonely little bare thread looks a bit forlorn. To my taste, it's not the most aesthetic means of accomplishing the design. But that's just my opinion. I happen to like the heavier, denser look of a tatted chain instead. As TattingChic sagely recognizes, I may change my mind in future and churn out single shuttle patterns like a house afire. Okay, if I can mix my metaphors with such careless abandon, there's every hope I can mix up my tatting expectations to include the bare thread as well. :)) I once tried my hand at mignonette. I had seen some that looked so airy and fairy-like, but once I got a good bit of it done, I decided that I just didn't like all the bare thread. Things really can take on a quite different persona in the flesh, so to speak, than they seem to have in a 2-D photo.
If anyone else wants to chime in, I'm all ears. Funny how audio slang still applies in a totally visual communique. Better to type, "If anyone else wants to key in, I'm all eyes." Hmm. Just doesn't quite make the same statement, somehow.
Reply by Sewicked 4 January 2009:
There's a way to 'cheat' on the bare thread, but it requires a lot of work and preparation. You put beads on all those bare threads. I haven't tried this, but there's this one pattern that I've been wanting to try; like Lynn, I often avoid bare threads pattern, despite getting much better with bare threads. Note the contradiction: I like Hen & Chicks edging.
And instead of a tattoo, try a little magic marker.
Reply by Denise Skidmore 4 January 2009:
It really depends on the point of the bare thread? In some patterns it adds more delicate features than a chain would. In other patterns the bare thread will be appliqued to a fabric edge and won't really be visible. But in other patterns it just seems to be a spacer, and a chain would do just as well.
Reply by PattyD 4 January 2009:
Hi Lynn,
Just goes to show that if you start a discussion, you never know just how wayward it will become. I think you hit a nerve. It does seem that a lot of Tatters have "issues" with bare threads!
Reply by Suzanne M. 4 January 2009:
"A crazy idea: what about having the markings of 10 mm or similar tattooed on the left index finger to help getting picot size and bare thread space right? (No – relax - I won't do it, just a crazy idea.)"
It is not all that crazy, Anne, I have been considering it since long before I started tatting. Most fiber and bead people who work fine detail are in constant need of a tiny ruler at the fingertips. Unfortunately, I don't think the measurement would remain accurate for long (skin stretches). A fingertip picot gauge would be really handy. Hmmm! that get the old cogwheels turning (Jane's braincell #3)... of what non-stretchy material could one make a fingertip slipover picot gauge (like an open ended thimble)? Some of my Japanese fabric project books show pretty little wool felt thimbles with embroidery on them. What if one were to make such a thimble and then embroider the desired picot lengths on it? The wool offers enough surface friction that it should stay on the finger. I don't have time to experiment with this one right now, but if somebody else does, I'd love to hear how it worked out.
Reply by AnneB 4 January 2009:
A fingertip picot gauge - hm - I like that idea, except I don't like fingertips :-)
Reply by Suzanne M. 4 January 2009:
You don't like fingertips? or is it thimbles you don't care for? I don't much care for them either (except the leather ones that fit so well - literally a second skin). However, since I posted, I have been mulling this idea - and I think it has possibilities. I'll see what I can come up with this week.
Reply by Connie Angeline 5 January 2009:
An idea I got from Terry the tatter (of the beautiful christmas glass and tatted christmas ball fame) Use a surgical marker to make dots on your finger to mark picot or bare thread length. This does not wash off and takes several days to fade. If you know an operating room nurse this should be easy to get.
Connie
Reply by Lynn 5 January 2009:
Ah, so much to ponder in this sidebar. I do have a very small scar on my left pointer finger - a present from very nearly chopping my fingertip off once. The scar is getting fainter as I age, but is still perceptible enough for me to use as a ready measure. It is almost exactly 1/2 inch from the bottom of the scar to the first joint of my finger. If I measure by this, then I can always get a perfect 1/4 inch picot. Please understand, I am not advocating anyone cutting up their fingers for this measurement quest. I just happen to have a unique advantage because of a once frightening kitchen accident. On a lighter note, I find that if tatting with a shuttle that has a long nose instead of a hook, it is possible to get consistent picots by using that long nose as a measure. Anything to avoid having pick up and put down another instrument.
Reply by Lynn 5 January 2009:
Ah, so much to ponder in this sidebar. I do have a very small scar on my left pointer finger - a present from very nearly chopping my fingertip off once. The scar is getting fainter as I age, but is still perceptible enough for me to use as a ready measure. It is almost exactly 1/2 inch from the bottom of the scar to the first joint of my finger. If I measure by this, then I can always get a perfect 1/4 inch picot. Please understand, I am not advocating anyone cutting up their fingers for this measurement quest. I just happen to have a unique advantage because of a once frightening kitchen accident. On a lighter note, I find that if tatting with a shuttle that has a long nose instead of a hook, it is possible to get consistent picots by using that long nose as a measure. Anything to avoid having pick up and put down another instrument.
Lynn again:
I understand what you mean. The best use I've seen for hen and chicks is to sew it onto something as an edging. That puts the smaller rings on the fabric with the bare threads right on the edge and the larger rings are the lace that is first noticed in the edging. That I can live with. But I mostly tat doilies, and that's where I object to the bare thread.
And again:
Hi-ya, Arlene. Always nice to see you get into the action around here.
Now about beads........That's an altogether different thread. I've used them on snowflakes, but that's about all. While I admire many of the beaded tatting I've seen, I'm not really "into" working with beads myself. But if one really wants to explore that option, and it really is a great idea, then I think Jane Eborall's method would work quite well. You don't need to do any extra pre-planning or stringing with her method, and it looks like it would work very well. Actually, it does work very well. Just take a look at Jane's blog to see what she's done with it. Sigh. Sometime I really would like to kidnap her Brain Cell # 3 for few days.
And having just re-read this, I realize that Jane's method might not work for this one particular problem. For beads on picots, it can't be beat. Not so sure how or if it would work when turning the work, though. This will take some cogitation.
See above for my unique option on tattooing your finger.
One more:
LOL. I think most tatters have "issues" with almost anything connected to tatting. Makes for an interesting world, eh?
Reply by Leeanne Boyd 9 January 2009:
I have found these types of patterns the most difficult and I tend to stay away from them as well. When I do them the spaces usually become uneven after a few rings and I dare not go back and undo so I pull at the rings hoping to stretch them all into size. I have tried the alternative that you suggested as well but I wasn't happy with the outcome.
Reply by Joy Beeson 11 January 2009:
http://www.clotilde.com/detail.html?code=141377
I've always thought Tiger Tape silly for its intended purpose -- and the above link suggests that I'm not alone in that opinion, since the page seems to be a clearance sale -- but half an inch of it stuck to a fingertip might be useful in tatting.
Reply by Susan B. T. 11 January 2009:
Different likes and dislikes is what makes the world a more interesting place.....
When I first started tatting I did not think I liked bear threads.... but then I did my wedding hanky... the only pattern I liked that gave me a lacy enough look was bear threaded.... so I used it.... do not recall the book the pattern is in.... but it is the same pattern I am using for my friend. I had to dig my hanky out for the pattern... anyway.... so now I like some one shuttle patterns. I have converted some one shuttle patterns to ring and chain ones with interestering results.
This is a great discussion...... thanks for starting it.
Reply by Lynn 12 January 2009:
Hi, Susan. Glad you're enjoying this as much as I am. I debated for quite sometime about starting it, because I felt kind of silly about it. But then I decided that most tatters have problems with one thing or another, and we all definitely have our likes and dislikes and pet peeves. Because of all the great responses here, I have resolved two issues. First, I no longer feel sad and lonely about bare threads. Second, I'm thinking that I just need to find that one special A-HA pattern in order to convince myself to like the looks of bare thread in my tatting. So, it's been worthwhile. I appreciate all the great responses. As usual, tatters have come up to the finish and not been found wanting.
Reply by Lynn 12 January 2009:
I've never seen Tiger Tape before. That was good for a chuckle. I can't imagine having a 30 yard roll of the stuff hanging around my house. No matter how much tatting I do, once I leave this world, there would still be a lot of it for my descendants to either inherit, or to wonder just what in the world I ever did with the stuff before they throw it away.
BlueDode
11-04-2009, 02:34 AM
Just tried the tiger tape link above: item is out of stock, so I didn't get to see it...do you suppose the InTatters snapped it all up? :wink:
I don't favor thread spaces, either: they look so fragile, and fragile things don't survive long in my life space: things get caught, snagged or torn in the upheavals of life. Recall pictures of old tatted lace that is falling apart at the thread spaces?
And, I take it a step further: I think standard shuttle thread joins are "fragile" and "light" like thread spaces; I use Dora Young knots instead: this amounts to making a double stitch join instead of a "half a double stitich join"....now, why would anyone want to make "rugged" looking lace, you ask? There's no accounting for taste I guess...
That said, have you seen Lene Bjorn's "24 Snowflakes in Tatting" aka "24 Julestjerner i Orkis" book? The snowflake for "The first of December" is a ring and thread space design, but the pattern suggests two shuttles and split rings to reduce the number of rounds. I've tatted all 24 snowflakes in size 20 thread for a donated Christmas tree a couple of years ago, and am in process of making them in size 30 thread. My thread spaces were a little long in size 20, and way long in size 30, but I've misplaced it during moving...it will show up. To me, this snowflake doesn't "fit" with the other ones, since it ends up bigger and floppier than the rest of them. I'm wondering if you need to make a 'swatch' like in knitting to figure out how long to make the thread spaces first? The length would be slightly different for each thread size, too: I think there are probably some charts for this somewhere...
Thread spaces do give a lighter appearance: they may look better with smaller rings rather than larger ones; mignonette would be really small rings...
I understand that historically rings and thread space tatting with one shuttle appeared before the chains were developed (ball and one shuttle or two shuttle tatting), and probably the "census of executive opinion" in this thread indicates why: people who see ring-chain tatting will prefer it, for the most part, to ring and thread spaces.
I've read that people crocheted over the thread spaces before tatted chains were invented: we know why they did :biggrin: ! However, I think this amounts to overkill (probably trumps the "underkill" of the thread space): thread spaces with crochet stitches on them pick up a lot of weight. There are some japanese hook tatting patterns that combine crocheting and tatting -- hook tatting and CroTatting are different from each other and both are distinct from crocheting over thread spaces, BTW. Also, determining the length of the thread space is still a problem, but you might be able to hide extra lenth in the crocheting. Short thread lengths puckering the work remain a problem.
I'm not convinced the answer is in metrology: I think the twisting / untwisting of thread plies, rings that may "unclose" a bit, and distortions / stretching / relaxing from handling the tatting adds variations to the length that rulers and tattoos may not overcome. Just an opinion. I recall a memory here: a guy once centered my friend's dining room table in it's alcove using his tape measure. He stood back, looked at it, shook his head and remeasured again: the table was accurately centered. Taking a step back again, he shook his head, put his tape measure away, and moved the table slightly in one direction a few times until it "looked right". Moral of this story: optical illusion effects can be involved as well.
A tangent: I do like the looks of the "thread spaces" in "Mediterranean Knotted Lace" from the books by Elena Dickson. This lace involves making thread knots and leaving equal length thread spaced between them in little arcs. This type of lace may have inspired a pattern in Janet Carroll's "Elegant Tatting Patterns" book: it is called "Point of Light" and is pictured on page 10. However, this "Point of Light" is written as a "ring and chain" pattern (mostly chain). It's visual and structural appearance reminds me a lot of some Mediterranean knotted lace patterns though. I've done a few experimental pieces of Mediterranean knotted lace in size 10 (it is usually done in size 50) thread. To translate to something approximating tatting terms, this Mediterranean lace would amount to something similar to using Dora Young knots for joins between thread spaces -- and no rings....but the knot used in Mediterannean... is NOT the Dora Young Knot...
It may be the contrast of the single thread involved in the thread space with the dense almost triple weight rings that is bothersome aesthetically. Perhaps the patterns we like strike a pleasing balance aesthetically somehow, but I've no idea of the mechanics involved.
Sorry: couldn't resist convoluting this interesting discussion a bit!
Happy tatting, thread spaces or not!
Reply by Fox 12 January 2009
http://www.intatters.com/picture.php?albumid=80&pictureid=710
I think this is appropriate to this conversation. I believe I have found a terrific use for the bare threads! I have not sewn this border on yet, but will do so with thin elastic and I think these socks will be adorable. Couldn't be done without those little bare threads, which will not be seen at all. I realize it's the look of the bareness that bothers you, Lynn, but I couldn't resist posting this as an example of how I like the little skimpy bits in my own context: I beg your indulgence! : ) Fox
Reply bu Suzanne M. 12 January 2009
Cute!
Reply by Susan B. T. 13 January 2009
Love the socks... Great colors.... and gee you almost do not see the bear thread.
Reply by Lynn 13 January 2009
Those are adorable. This is exactly the kind of use for hen and chicks that I was talking about in my response to Denise. Thank you for the great visual example, Fox.