View Full Version : Converting shuttle t to needle t
feroluce
27-09-2010, 09:48 PM
Hello everyone,
I apologize if this thread is a duplicate - I didn't see anything in the recent threads so I am asking the question. If there is already a thread for this, I'll be delighted to check it out as well.
I would love to hear from everyone who has successfully converted shuttle to needle patterns. I have The Big Book of Tatting (got it over the weekend), have successfully converted 3 patterns, but I am sure there must be a trick to this without having to try the whole thing first ;-0)
The material in my intro book wasn't as helpful as I could have wished, and I have not found much online either. Thanks for your help, links, etc.!!
carolivy
27-09-2010, 10:22 PM
What exactly are you having problems with? I never really "converted" any of the patterns I worked with the needle. I just tatted them as they were stated, using a needle instead of the shuttle. If you can tell what techniques are confusing you in converting from shuttle patterns to needle tatting it would help us better to help you.
crazytatter
28-09-2010, 01:17 AM
the only thing I found confusing is whether to reverse the project or not when I do needle tatting. is it yes always to reverse or no not every time to reverse?
:shock: I just wrote out a whole page of hints and suggestions since I've needle tatted many of these patterns when I, too , was a beginner. You can guess.. I hit the wrong key and it disappeared. The patterns are tricky to read, even for a shuttle tatter, so that's not the problem with this book. I had to chart them, and I couldn't always tell what was happening. I still love the book because of the cute designs, but I don't love the instructions. Can you pick one or two that you want to start with and I'll send my notes on it.
carolivy
28-09-2010, 02:02 AM
MOST of the time if you are making a Ring then a Chain, you will Reverse Work. If you are making a Ring, Ring and Ring and they are joined, this is a Clover Leaf and there is no Reversing until the last ring in the set is done. Hope this helps.
crazytatter
28-09-2010, 02:15 AM
thank you that does help. what about joining? when I shuttle tatting, the instruction say to do the 2nd part of ds after joining and that is counted as 1 ds but on needle is it different? joining doesn't count as a ds?
feroluce
28-09-2010, 02:50 AM
Wow, you all are marvelous - the biggest problem I have is knowing when to reverse the work if I'm needle-tatting a shuttle pattern.
But that still doesn't say enough, I'm realizing - let me go home tonight and pull the pattern I have fallen in love with and ask for help with it tomorrow.
Stay tuned!
(The fact that I've been NT'ing 3 weeks might "also" have something to do with it, heh heh...but I do try obsessively!) - the book's at home and the internet access isn't, but I'll be baaaack...
Susan B T
28-09-2010, 03:12 AM
I shuttle tat only and follow needle patterns or crotat patterns just the same as for a shuttle. I have yet to modify a pattern.
perlnaofee
28-09-2010, 05:41 AM
@ feroluce: "....- the biggest problem I have is knowing when to reverse the work if I'm needle-tatting a shuttle pattern"
And understand you well, because this was my problem too , when I started needle tatting , how will be the direction of my ds when I have finshed the ring or chain. Don't give up, you will get used to it. Just think it over that the ring or chain will "run away from the ball ", then you might know if you work like the pattern tells or not.And if there is something to joine to, this must be on your left side, to be able to join. If not, just do a clear good knot, this will change the direction.(Is it called overhand knot, if you do just one knot?I am just now not sure )
When I teach needle tatting, I always say: first important thing to learn is the way of second half of the ds. And the second important thing is to do the knot after a ring or chain, clear, with no trubble, always in the same way. Because this knot is responsable for the orintation of your rings and chains.
My first doily with needle tatting was one of Iris Niebachs doily, Francheska, it is not done in rounds, its worked all in one. THAT was the most complicated thing I could choose, and I learned it with that peace!!
Looking forward to help you.
perlnaofee
28-09-2010, 05:50 AM
@carol: refering to clover leaf....
In general, do you make a knot after pulling the ds from the needle and fishing the ring or chain? I learned to do that, after every ring or chain make a knot, so this will reverse your work. In a youtube video from somewhere,poland, tschecai, they did no knot inbetween. I personally found it very useful to give stability to my work , so I always make a knot. And if I tat a clover leaf I will make 2 knots after every ring, to be able to join.
carolivy
28-09-2010, 11:16 AM
@carol: refering to clover leaf....
In general, do you make a knot after pulling the ds from the needle and fishing the ring or chain? I learned to do that, after every ring or chain make a knot, so this will reverse your work. In a youtube video from somewhere,poland, tschecai, they did no knot inbetween. I personally found it very useful to give stability to my work , so I always make a knot. And if I tat a clover leaf I will make 2 knots after every ring, to be able to join.
Personally, I like 1 ds between rings in a Clover, but not all patterns call for it and sometimes I like the look of the pattern so much that I just make it as stated in the pattern. It all depends.
@crazytatter: thank you that does help. what about joining? when I shuttle tatting, the instruction say to do the 2nd part of ds after joining and that is counted as 1 ds but on needle is it different? joining doesn't count as a ds?
I think this is a personal choice. I know some ladies do consider it as the first ds, but some don't. I'm one that doesn't, in either needle tatting or shuttle tatting.
IcePrincess
28-09-2010, 11:47 AM
In general, do you make a knot after pulling the ds from the needle and fishing the ring or chain
The way you taught me, the knot it is a reversal of the work. Funny enough, ever since the knotting makes sense and my needle tatting looks a lot better!
Also, this makes clear why in a clover leaf you have to knot twice - in order to reverse the work twice.
Maybe that helps you in working shuttle patterns with the needle - whenever you finish an element and they say "reverse work" - knot once. Whenever they say "do not reverse work" you knot twice.
xstchntat
28-09-2010, 04:03 PM
When I teach needle tatting, I always say: first important thing to learn is the way of second half of the ds. And the second important thing is to do the knot after a ring or chain, clear, with no trubble, always in the same way. Because this knot is responsable for the orintation of your rings and chains.
If you do true rings and chains there is no need for the knot after every element. And it is nearly indistinquishable from shuttle tatting if the needle size and tension are right. The thread follows the same path as the thread would in shuttle tatting. No remember to tie a knot or not.
patrice
29-09-2010, 05:20 PM
I am always needle tatting patterns written for the shuttle.Whether you are using a needle or a shuttle-you would turn it the same way.The problem is that many patterns don't tell you to turn-so you have to figure it out.Once you know what direction the rings and chains go-you will be able to figure out whether or not you need to turn.Some patterns have so many turns-and not turn-where you usually would...that they are always confusing.I love those kinds of patterns-keeps me on my toes.
Quote " If you do true rings and chains there is no need for the knot after every element."
Most needle tatters get in the swing of things by doing what shuttle tatters call SCMR's. Those are chains that you pull into a ring. Chains are chains.. Any place where the core thread and the outside display thread are different, you will have tension problems if you don't tie the knot. Yes, the shoe lace trick, overhand knot or whatever you call it, is essential for all those reasons. You can do true rings when needle tatting, but because there is no difference in appearance, but mostly because its awkward to handle all that extra thread on the needle if you do true rings, most needle tatters don't bother. So, they're taught to tie a knot after each element, and the extras at cloverleafs are what are needed to get the direction right. So now this becomes a front side back side discussion. If you can tell if you're on the front or back, its an additional aid.
carolivy
29-09-2010, 08:16 PM
When you tie the knot after a ring for a Clover Leaf, you don't switch the threads. Keep the threads in the same order and you are not flipping (or reversing...or turning...whatever) your work. When you switch the threads when you tie the knot is when you reverse work.
feroluce
29-09-2010, 08:58 PM
Hello everyone,
Thanks to everyone for their help with this ongoing issue!
Last night I needle-tatted Monica Mancenido's Mini Butterly (from a graphics pattern, no less!!!) and it came out just perfectly.
Then, flushed with success, I attempted the lovely Christmas Heart (with the picots) pattern by Anne Bruvold. This is a shuttle pattern, but I had no problems needle-tatting it UNTIL I came to the notation SCMR: 4(R:4+4)4.
At that point, everything broke down.
I could not for the LIFE of me remember if SCMR is the same thing in s.t. and n.t. - and as luck would have it, I did not have my crib sheets handy. I don't have internet at home, so I couldn't pop into Georgia Seitz' site for a quick tuneup...
So...I looked at what I thought were the two scmr's in the pattern, decided they were just split rings - and then I did 2 of them but something WEIRD happened and I wound up upside down?? backwards??? whutttt??? so I decided to just close up the heart and call it a night and then I realized that I had a 4-petaled "flower" in one lobe of the heart and a 5-petaled "flower" in the other lobe....
so...I punted.
It doesn't look right, it isn't right, but I am not sure what I did wrong. I know that when the two scmr's are done, one should be in a position to finish the heart according to the pattern (what I did involved cutting and tying off and starting over to make the 5th petal and then - my goodness, it was such a blur, I don't even remember how mixed up it all became).
Yet, I love love this pattern. It is a true heart shape, and it is gorgeous with or without the picots. I want to do it again.
I'm wondering this - would someone have pity on me?
What, as a needle tatter, would I actually do to execute the shuttle tatted instruction SCMR: 4(R: 4+4)4 ????
Thank you kindly!!
I get lost doing SCMR's with the needles also (hence why I learned how to shuttle tat lol) But the pattern I wanted to do called for 2 colors and I was getting pretty lost, was much easier done with the shuttle...
But as for your pattern I think it would be for the needle to ch 4(leave a very small piece of thread just before closing the chain and just put a safety pin to hold it) (dnr) ring 4+(join to another ring)4 (dnr) ch 4 then to close just bring the needle up through the hole from the first chain.... that might work... no guarantees lol
carolivy
29-09-2010, 10:51 PM
SCMR's in Needle Tatting are just the same rings you have always been making. Just ignore that little designation and make a Ring. ;-)
BlueDode
29-09-2010, 11:34 PM
To reverse work, or not to reverse work, that is a good question...
Compare the appearance of "reversed work" and "DO NOT reverse work": the chain curves oppositely (concave vs convex, which one depends on your point of view). Tat your own samples or look at a picture of the chain curves (and ring position) of a pattern that has both. This helps you make sense out of it.
Patterns made with rings, chains, picots, using one shuttle and a ball of thread are the easiest to do with needle tatting -- no conversion to speak of.
Patterns with split rings, split chains (bridges), some (but not all) beading techniques, can give one pause in the translation process: to leap this obstacle it is best to know a bit of shuttle AND needle tatting: techniques are out there.
In some sense, translation isn't the best word for this: in a sense, you are retooling the pattern: the language is the same, put the processes are different.
SCMR is self closing "mock" ring. Needle tatters do this allllllll the time. I'm a bit confused by the parentheses and mislocation of the R to indicate ring. So at this point I would ask myself... does this have a matching ring someplace else? Is this the only one? What would it logically join to? a 4+4 ring is probably not what's being called for, but it might be 4 copies of a ring. It might be a misprint. Rings, even SCMR usually don't have parentheses in them unless something is to be repeated. Does 4 copies make sense in this pattern? If it were 4 copies of R4+4 Then I'd find my trusty magifying glass and see what I could do about estimating stitch counts from a photo if there is one and see if that's right. Once more choice. Contact the designer. She may be floating around here, or you can try google for her and a personal website.
IcePrincess
30-09-2010, 11:09 AM
UNTIL I came to the notation SCMR: 4(R:4+4)4.
For me as a shuttle tatter that would be: Start a SCMR with four ds, throw off a ring of 4 ds, join to the three already worked rings on the bottom, 4 ds, close that ring, then finish the SCMR with another four stitches. You then have two rings, one on top of the other, both of the same size, and you can work from the point you just arrived at.
How would I translate that to needle. Lem'me think... start a ring with 4 ds, then pull some of the thread through, work a ring 4+4, close the ring, then finish the other 4 ds and close the ring you started first
Yes I thought scmr's were chains with a ring on it but then the chains are connected to form another ring.... SO the 4 is a chain of 4 then the (4+4) is a ring and then the last 4 is another chain then they are drawn altogether to from a ring.
BlueDode
30-09-2010, 10:43 PM
rain:
Did this shuttle tatting pattern mention it requires two shuttles?
Two shuttle patterns convert more or less to two needle (and no ball) patterns: in other words, working with lengths of thread and two needles (or rethreading one needle).
Thanks Ice princess. That description makes sense; I hope it fits the design. Ok, now that I understand the 4(R:4+4)4 here's what you do with the needles.
You're making an "8" starting at the bottom left. You'll need to cut the ball thread. Look and see how many stitches you'll need after this and make it long enough that you won't have to add more later.
Chain the first 4.
If you have a second needle, Drop the first needle, and thread the ball thread on the second needle.
Make the 4+4 ring using only the ball thread and 2nd needle. Don't forget the join. Take it off the needle and tighten it. It should make a ring without having to put the needle through any loop. This is called a floating ring.
Now, drop or unthread the second needle and resume where you left off with the first needle. Put on the last 4 chain stitches. You should show only chain stitches on this needle. Take them off the needle and make the ring as usual.
If you don't have a second needle.... Modify the order so you can use the needle to make the floating ring. You'll need to take the 4 chain stitches off the needle. Use a paperclip or thread to keep the loop open as you pull out the needle. Unthread the needle, and re-thread it using the ball thread. Now, back to the directions for "second needle" "Make.. the " After you finish the floating needle you go back to the needle's original position and re thread it with the core thread. You'll only put 4 stitches on. As you remove these the previous 4 should snug up right next to the last 4. Pop the needle through where the paper clip was and you've finished the "8"