ring inside ring

[t00tir3d]

How can you create a ring inside a ring? I've seen this in many shuttle tatting instructions but I didn't manage to convert it for needle tatting.
Does anyone have an idea?
thanks

[jamlover]

Is there an onion ring in needle tatting? That's what it is in shuttle tatting.

[PattyD]

The ring inside ring involves making the inside ring first, then making an outside row that is joined to the inside ring, which is a core thread to picot join. In shuttle tatting it is possible to make an inside ring AND an outside ring. I leave it to needle tatters to say how that might be done. If the outside ring is a chain, then it is a bit clearer to me how accomplish that in needle tatting.

[Judy]

Yes, indeed, we do the onion rings with needles! and Patty D, probably both the inside and outside layers are made as shuttle tatters would call them.. chains.

[t00tir3d]

So, you basically create two chains, joined in the middle through a picot, and then close and rw them?
I've tried that already but it didn't look good... Could you please give me a detailed explanation?

[Judy]

The first ones I tried were from one of the Italian magazines. There may have been instructions beyond stitch counts, but since I don't read much Italian, I didn't look. I didn't know better, so I just practiced and practiced.
Round one is inside. It could be a true ring, but usually ends up being a regular ball thread ring. Close, tie, reverse work. Make a chain that will lie next to the first. Run the needle through the picot, finish the chain. Close, tie, reverse work. Continue adding chains with or without picots or whatever.

Many patterns have a picot at the top of the first ring. I wasn't sure how to include this. I ended up just running the needle through the picot because all other methods seemed to leave a dimple or bump where I didn't want one. Most joins put the caps of stitches head to head. On onion rings it will be caps to legs. The pattern called for specific stitch counts that put the layers immediately next to each other, like block tatting. I ended up adjusting stitch counts because my tension probably didn't match those of the designer. So, if you're needle tatting, just keep in mind that you may have to adjust counts because of stitch size,--- which depends on thread size, and needle size, and tension, and what the separation of the layers is supposed to be.
You will have an odd number of layers unless the inside layer is done as a ring. The trickiest part when adding the outer chains is controlling how those chain ends look. That takes some practice. Can we see the errors? Maybe we can decipher the problem.

[t00tir3d]

Judy, thank you so much for your answer. I'll try your method and show you the results.