Talk to me of threads....

[spoiled]

I am an absolute beginner, and I need to buy some thread, but I don't know what to look for.

My husband bought me a tatting kit for Christmas, which included a lot of used shuttles from Ebay, plus he bought some 80 and 100 weight threads. Those are WAY too fine to learn with! Several of the shuttles had thread already wound and I tried some of those, but they were still too fine to see what I was doing.

I just happened to have some crochet thread around - it's a #3. It worked great to get me started - I can see every knot and how they're formed, and how to flip the knots. But it's pretty big. I'd like to try some finer threads now, but not the 80 or 100 yet!

What should I look for? What size? Cordonnay, Cebilia, Perle - what does those mean? Are they brand names or types of threads? Anything else I should look for?

[MercyPres]

After learning on crochet thread, I went to size 20 and can still see quite well. I had to use a lit magnifying glass to work with 80 at first, now only need the magnifying to retrotat or to go back and count. I love the lizbeth though I now like the DMC but lizbeth is firmer and does not split quite so easily. Have fun trying different threads. :yes:

Lizbeth is a brand. Handy Hands has most of the available brands to compare.
http://hhtatting.com/

PS: I don't know about most but they sure do have a lot of different brands.

[Fiona T]

Yep, Lisbeth is the way to go. Try size 20 or 40 thread to start with, and get a couple of different colours, this will help you see when you are 'flipping' the stitches correctly...Have fun!

[AnneB]

You need a firm and tight wound thread that bends easilly. The best way of finding threads that suits you is by testing different kinds. Lizbeth size 20 is perfect first go and comes in a large variety of colours. Most threads in the cordonnet variety will do.

When you get the hang of tatting, please do experiment with different sizes. Here (http://www.intatters.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13769&d=1320519837) is a photo of two motifs of the same pattern (one blue and one red), made in two extremes of thread size.

[PattyD]

Threads have rather antique methods of measuring. Here are some thread terms to help you understand the issues:

Cordonnet is a French word meaning twisted like a rope. Ropes are multi-ply and the word cordonnet, in reference to thread is usually 6 plies. Three pairs of 2 plies are twisted tightly one ways and then the twisted pairs are twisted tightly together the other way. You may see references to S and Z twisting. S and Z are used to signify which direction something is twisted in. And the center section of an S slants from upper left to lower right, a Z slants from upper right to lower left. In other words they are the opposite directions that plies can be twisted in. In cordonnet, if the 3 pairs are twisted S, then the final full thread of 6 plies is twisted Z and vice versa. So cordonnet does not collapse like a softer thread with less twist and fewer plies. I always think of it as a cordonnet has less air in it, it is almost all thread.

Some crochet cotton is cordonnet, but not very much. Crochet thread tends to be 3 ply, sometimes tightly twisted and sometimes not. It's okay to tat with if it has been mercerized. Mercerized is a process where the thread has been made with a step the singes the fine hairs off the thread and then the thread is treated with a chemical compound that makes the fibers swell which makes the thread very smooth.

There are some threads from Japan that are made in India which are very nice and have 4 plies, 2 pairs of 2 plies. It works very nicely and is mercerized.

Now for size. Cordonnet and Crochet thread have the same size ranges. The larger the number, the smaller the thread. This is because the number is essentially a manufacturing measure that says how many lengths of thread can be made from the same weight of fiber, so finer thread requires less fiber so you get more per weight of fiber than a larger thread so the finer thread has a larger number than the larger thread. It is an indirect way to number things.

Then we get to pearl cotton which is a completely different animal and constructed quite differently. Pearl cotton is made for embroidery. it comes in yummy colors and tats rather well. However it is a floss thread, which means pearl cotton is manufactured with fewer twists. Pearl cotton is made of 2 plies only and the plies themselves are rather large. The size numbers for pearl cotton range large size 3 to very small size 20, however the numbers do not refer to threads that are the same size as the cordonnet and crochet thread.

There is a method of measuring different sized threads. What you do is wrap a piece of thread around a card so that each wrap of thread is sitting smoothly and closely to the previous wrap. Measure a distance of 1 centimeter and count the number of wraps. Threads that have the same number of wraps or are close in the number of wraps can be substituted for one another but may have different working properties or a different texture.

DMC Pearl Cotton size 3 (the largest) is 8 wraps/cm, size 12 (the smallest) is 21 wraps/cm
DMC Cordonnet size 5 (the largest) is 15 wraps/cm, size 80 (traditional "tatting thread") is 30 wraps/cm

Finally, there are a number of cotton cordonnet threads from Turkey that employs a different size number and are softer because they are twisted less.
Generally Turkish size 50 is equal to a DMC cordonnet size 30 and Turkish size 70 is equal to a DMC 50 or 60.

So tatting beginners usually start with largest thread suitable for tatting which would be a cordonnet size 10 or a pearl cotton size 5.

Personally I love smaller threads and have been known to tat with a single ply of sewing thread. My tatting history began with the Learn How Book which said to use size 80 tatting thread! So I did, not knowing any better. Sigh.....

I would keep some of the colors of the size 80 and 100, because you will be surprised how quickly you can develop a yen for small thread. If you are selling off your smaller thread, I would love to get my hands on size 100!

[Fiona T]

Just had a quick search for Size 100 thread, seems it is only available in white and ecru...but think it maybe able to be hand dyed?? Here are 2 links: http://store.knitting-warehouse.com/crochet-thread-dmc-cordonnet-cotton.html & http://www.crochetaustralia.com.au/category36_4.htm. I will keep my eye out for colours!

Thanks for the information above, it has answered lots of my questions...I now feel more informed about thread!

[Adrian Jones]

For hand dyed thread, try

LadyShuttleMaker on Etsy (http://www.etsy.com/shop/LadyShuttleMaker?section_id=5333654)

Sherry (who is the lady who makes shuttles) is very helpful and dyes some beautiful colours, in size 100, 80, 50 and 20 cotton and size 20 silk.

[spoiled]

Thank you so much for all of this info! I do have a bunch of embroidery floss around here somewhere, but I think I'll save that for when I have more experience. It's so much softer than thread, like it's lacking body. I imagine the tighter twisted thread is going to be a lot easier to learn with. I think I have that same Learn How book! It was one of the things my husband got me for Christmas. I also got The Complete Book of Tatting, but so far I've found online videos are most helpful.

[spoiled]

Wow, that's quite a difference in sizes! I almost didn't even see the smaller red motif at first. What thread sizes did you use for those?

[spoiled]

I already have a fair sized yarn stash - I'll probably soon have a thread stash as well! Thanks for the link!

[AnneB]

What thread sizes did you use for those?

The blue is done in Trapilho which is made of leftovers from clothes manufacture (t-shirt fabric). I believe it is made in Portugal but I don't have a good English link on it. The red is done in ordinary sewing thread.

The Trapilho is a bit elastic and could be a challenge for that reason, but I love tatting using it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBXHqRKuyxg), and it opens new posibillities on the use of tatting. If you want to tat using Trapilho, make sure you buy the amount you need as size might (and colour and "feel") change between production - it is made of left overs remember.

Before discovering the Trapilho yarn, I was drifting into thinner threads, sampling lots of DMC 80 and similar, but newer bought thread known (to me) to be size 100. Got plenty of nice colouresd quilting thread though which could easilly be size 100. The sewing thread is thinner than size 80, probably more like size 100. Tatting using sewing thread is also a challenge as you need to count as you tat and trust you counted right. There is no way of counting afterwards - not unless you have a magnifying glass - and I don't. Love the result of sewing thread tatting though so I'll be back at it.

[Holly Ann]

I would recommend size 20 thread. Pretty easy to find and inexpensive. If thicker (size 10) it doesn't hold well for beginners (at least not for me), and if thinner, it is too hard to see. When starting a new pattern, I will use size 10 or 20 as the thread is easy to find and I'm not wasting good thread on my mistakes (I always have to throw away about 3 tries before I understand the pattern). Hope this helps.

[soyloquesoy]

Hi...

So, I am reviving this thread to ask Patty (or someone else knowledgeable about thread sizes) to take a look at the following table: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ea/achury/titulo.html, and tell me if what they call "English cotton" and label Ne is the normal sizing for tatting thread (the one that ranges from 10 to 100 usually). Note: they define it as "the number of 840 yard units per pound"

I have some mercerized cotton sized in "TEX" (TEX 222), and I'd love to try and give an equivalent of its size... (which is translated to 4.5 Ne, which does sound reasonable, as it is quite thicker then size 10 tatting thread)

Thanks in advance!

[PattyD]

Tex is a modern thread sizing system where the the larger the thread, the larger the number! How clever is that?

Unfortunately, thread sizing is not converting to Tex very quickly, because the thread business is old and resistant to change. There are several different systems of of sizing thread depending on the fiber content and the country of manufacture. Cotton and linen numbering have an approximate relationship of cotton thread being about half the size of a linen thread of the same number because they have completely different methods of measuring the amount of fiber used in a measured amount of thread. I suspect, but can't confirm that the reason tatting uses the term cordonnet is that french terms are prevalent in needlework threads.

[Ireneho]

I tat with S-Lon #18 Beading Cord. Does that make me a rebel? :P

[elsiel]

Thanks PattyD, for the thread info - very useful for we beginners! I used to tat long ago using Coats Mercer thread. Now I am trying to find a similar thread. I have just placed an order for Lizbeth...hope it's as good as the old Coats, that is, the tatted article turns out stiff, shiny & clean cut, not a fuzz in sight anywhere.

[Ireneho]

Thanks PattyD, for the thread info - very useful for we beginners! I used to tat long ago using Coats Mercer thread. Now I am trying to find a similar thread. I have just placed an order for Lizbeth...hope it's as good as the old Coats, that is, the tatted article turns out stiff, shiny & clean cut, not a fuzz in sight anywhere.

Good quality beading cord doesn't do that. And you don't need to starch, stiffen or block it.

[PattyD]

Ireneho, that is a very good recommendation to try the beading cord! I'll try anything once, or even twice if there is anything useful from the first attempt. There are no rebels in tatting, however, everything we do to tat is pretty much a personal choice. Actually, breaking brand new beginners from thinking there is ONLY one way to do anything in tatting is always my first task. When I tell them stuff like "patterns are only a suggestion." they usually look a little faint. But if I keep saying it, they eventually change something about a pattern AND the world does not come to an end. THEN they start to believe me; especially when they like the result better.

[Ireneho]

Yes, you have to keep trying.

I remember when I first got the Learn to Tat book with dvd, it was tat and swear time! Tried that heart 5 times and gave up. That was in Nov '11. Now I look at my completed piece and it feels like a huge achievement!

As for the thread, I had a What-If moment, when I bought some beading cord. And it turned out pretty good, shiny, no starch and it holds it shape very well. The only con here, is that it can be a little slippery to work with.

Oh if anyone is wondering how thick my S-Lon cord is, it is slightly thinner than Milford Crochet Cotton 3ply.