Needle versus Shuttle

[Artylady]

I would like to make the Riego Bunch of Grapes bookmark but do not know how to use a needle and prefer shuttle and ball. (Pls bear with me as I am fairly new to this and am trying to be a bit adventurous).

Pls can someone advise how I can convert this pattern I'm particularly interested in knowing how I can do the following with a shuttle/ball rather than a needle :-

"pass needle through" - for example, in the 5th grape (ring) it states "pass needle through bottom of 1st grape, rw, pass needle through bottom of 5th grape".
Thank you

[AnneB]

As far as I could find on the internet, there is a pattern here (http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes2001/essgrape.html), that uses a needle, but it also referes to a splitring version so there might be a pattern for shuttles somewhere.

But if you can't find it try to make a lock join at the bottom of the grape, between two double stitches.

[Sherry Matthews]

Hi,
I am also interested in doing this bookmark, but I needle tat. I have looked at the bookmark several times and in reading the directions am a bit confused. I did just finish the Grape Heart from Martha Ess' book and am hoping that will help me understand this bookmark pattern. If I can figure it out I will let you know.
Sherry Matthews

[tattabugg]

The way I did this pattern was to use the needle (a sewing needle) as a shuttle. You only need a short amount of thread to do the grapes so you don't have to wind any thread around the needle, then you just use the needle the same as you would your shuttle. This was not my idea, it was some where that it told on the pattern I have to do it this way. Works just fine.

[Susan B T]

Most needle patterns can be shuttle tatted.. rings are rings and chains are chains.
There may be odd techniques that need to be adjusted, but for the needle patterns I have used I have not found any...
so far I have also found the true for Cro-tat patterns.

[BlueDode]

Artylady:

I believe M.Ess who wrote this pattern is referring NOT to "needle tatting" (method of Barbara Foster's books) but she is using the needle instead of a shuttle to accomplish "shuttle tatting": in essence, it is a shuttle tatting pattern, using a needle. It will need some rewording for "needle tatting" using Foster's method.

To see the picture of the tatting more clearly, I suggest copying the graphic image of the tatting on the screen and pasting it into the Paint program (assumes Windows XP and most early versions) under the Start Menu, Accessories Option. Paste the image into this program, then Edit menu, Zoom, Custom, and select 200% or larger: graphic quality is good, and you can really see the tatting.

As I understand her pattern (I have not tatted it), I would expect to see a single thread crossing the middle of some of the grapes, but I don't see it. These may be hidden. But I do see her text method of indicating the order in which to tat the grapes -- different order depending on approach to making the grapes: split rings, SCMRs, rings with threads behind. I understand why this is so, and the larger image on my computer screen helped me alot. Take a good look at these diagrams to understand why. BTW: there are tatting patterns made with a string of normally tatted rings (NOT split rings) that carry a thread BEHIND each ring from the base of the ring to its opposite side, where it can be joined (you might want to make a tiny picot for this half way around the ring, or you can just use a crochet hook or the needle to run the thread through the ring) at a point that becomes the base of the next ring.

The technical problem to be overcome is stacking the rows of rings that form the grape bunches. In essence, grapes are rings separated by thread spaces that run BEHIND instead of BETWEEN the rings. I had to take a double/triple/... take on the notion of passing the thread through the bottom of the grape; to my way of thinking, the bottom of the grape is the stem end: she means the bottom of the grape as it hangs on the vine, the end opposite the stem (I would call this the top of the grape for some reason that doesn't make sense in terms of grapse, now I think about it, yet it makes sense in terms of tatted rings, at least to me)

I hope this makes some sense: if not, I still would recommend looking at an enlarged version of the picture of the tatting as you work it and think about the instructions.

Good luck!

[Kersti]

Perhaps there's a good opportunity here for someone to re-write this pattern for needle tatters and for shuttle tatters...

[AnneB]

Perhaps there's a good opportunity here for someone to re-write this pattern for needle tatters and for shuttle tatters...

Is that a challenge? :boxing: :biggrin:

[Artylady]

I would love it if someone could write the shuttle version - it would help me TREMENDOUSLY!!! Pretty, pretty please.

[IcePrincess]

Just saw this thread. I worked a lot on Riego-patterns for my book. I didn't do the bunch of grapes (yet...), but the description on using a needle and "passing it through" (which most often simply means a join) is very familiar by now.
I'll see if I can re-write and draw it during the weekend. It really is simple and if you ask me, it's the very first time someone did "creative tatting".

[katie]

Just saw this thread. I worked a lot on Riego-patterns for my book. I didn't do the bunch of grapes (yet...), but the description on using a needle and "passing it through" (which most often simply means a join) is very familiar by now.
I'll see if I can re-write and draw it during the weekend. It really is simple and if you ask me, it's the very first time someone did "creative tatting".

That would be soooooooo wonderful! I love that pattern, too & have been hoping someone would do a shuttle version. I'm still too newby to be able to do that.:blush:

[Artylady]

I looked at the pattern again last night - has anyone (pretty please) had a chance to modify it for shuttle users? Thank you

[IcePrincess]

I had a go on it last night. When you're familiar with Riegos way of writing down the patterns it's really easy, believe me. She uses netting and sewing needle throughout this book. As I thought - the "pass through" has to be worked as a join when doing shuttle tatting. With the tatting needle you really can pass through!
I'll start out with a slightly simplified two-shuttle version and post the original later today or tomorrow. Here we go.

For stem and leaves:
R 5 cl (this is to have something to anchor the chain to!)
Ch 9
R 5-1-1-5 (repeat three times)
Ch 4 rw
R 5-1-1-5 (repeat three times)
Ch 6
Finish off the green Thread

For the grapes: You need only one shuttle. Whenever there is a picot mentioned, please make it as small as possible. If you have a very fine crochet hook, don't use a picot at all but do join between the fifth and sixth stitch.

Grape 1: R 5-5, now join the violet thread to the stem
Grape 2: R 5-5, pass thread behind and join to the picot of grape 2
Grape 3: R 5-5, join to picot of grape 2
Grape 4: R 5-5, join to picot on grape 1
Grape 5: R 5-5, pass thread behind and join to the picot of grape 5 rw
Grape 6: R 5-5, join to picot on grape 4
Grape 7: R 5-5, join to picot on grape 3, rw, pass thread behind and join to picot of grape 7
Grape 8: R 5-5, join to picot of grape 6
Finish off.

I hope it's understandable so far.

[tattabugg]

Wow! This is great. I am going to give it a go later tonight and see if I can do it. I have done it using a regular sewing needle as a replacement for the shuttle but, this is so much easier! So glad you were able to make it a shuttle pattern.

[Artylady]

Thank you very much for this - I will have a go later today.

[katie]

Oh, thank you, thank you!! I'm demo'ing tatting today, but will give it a try later in the week!

[Kersti]

Make sure you post a picture - would love to see it :)

[Ridgewoman]

[QUOTE=IcePrincess;8350]I had a go on it last night. When you're familiar with Riegos way of writing down the patterns it's really easy, believe me. She uses netting and sewing needle throughout this book.


This was a priceless bit of information and very kind to write out the pattern. For those who would like to try sewing needle tatting, I'd suggest
To De Haan-van Beek's book "New Dimensions in Tatting" Part IV page 40 has photos and written 'how to' do this sort of needle tatting (which is quite old an method; as opposed to cro-tat and regular needle tatting that came along in the early 70's.

:heart:B

[IcePrincess]

Thank you for the compliments. I haven't forgotten about the "more original" shuttle version and I will post pictures (although I did it all in sky-blue silk, should work a two-color version). Unfortunately I came down with a cold on sunday and didn't want to touch a computer. I'll get to it as soon as I'm home from work.

[tattabugg]

I tried your pattern IcePrincess and it works great ( I only got one cluster of the grapes done so far ) You did a great job!!

[IcePrincess]

Okay... Kersti asked for pictures - here they are.

Front of the simplified version I already posted
http://www.intatters.com/picture.php?albumid=240&pictureid=2403
Back of the simplified version
http://www.intatters.com/picture.php?albumid=240&pictureid=2402
My picots are waaaaay toooo large on the bunch of grapes, at least that's my impression, so be careful about those!

Front of the "as close to the original as possible"-version.
http://www.intatters.com/picture.php?albumid=240&pictureid=2405
Back of the same
http://www.intatters.com/picture.php?albumid=240&pictureid=2404
I did not make any picots but joined between the fifth and sixth stitch. I like this one much better. Also I like the small stem to the leaves.

Here we go with the more "original" version, with the added stem. Riego does this with only one group of leaves.

For stem and leaves:
R 5 cl (this is to have something to anchor the chain to!)
Ch 9
leave about 1/8th of an inch of thread.
R 5-1-1-5 (repeat three times) rw
work four overcast stitches over the loose thread. (Like the second half of the split ring... I don't know if the word is correct) rw
Ch 4 rw
R 5-1-1-5 (repeat three times)
Ch 6
Finish off the green Thread

For the grapes: You need only one shuttle. Join between the fifth and sixth stitch with a fine crochet hook.

Grape 1: R 10, now join the violet thread to the stem
Grape 2: R 10, pass thread behind and join between stitch 5 and 6 of grape 2
Grape 3: R 10, join between stitch 5 and 6 of grape 2
Grape 4: R 10, join between stitch 5 and 6 on grape 1
Grape 5: R 10, pass thread behind and join between stitch 5 and 6 of grape 5 rw
Grape 6: R 10, join between stitch 5 and 6 on grape 4
Grape 7: R 10, join between stitch 5 and 6 on grape 3, rw, pass thread behind and join between stitch 5 and 6 of grape 7
Grape 8: R 10, join between stitch 5 and 6 of grape 6
Finish off.

If I'd ever use this pattern I'd work with three shuttles though and would continue the stem behind the bunch of grapes and adding several bunches of grapes to the same stem.

[sonsery]

The vintage book "The Tatting Book" by Reigo De La Branchardiere" shows how to use a needle as a shuttle. It's on the Arizona.edu site:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/front_door.html

Here's a direct link to the pdf but be sure to look at the Arizona site too. They have a lot of free vintage books that you can download as pdf files.

Direct Link:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/monographs/br_tattb.pdf

Barb

[sonsery]

I know this thread is a couple months old, but I just wanted to say how beautiful your grapes are. :)

Barb

[swissgirl]

Good evening

@IcePrincess: I saw your location, southern Germany, and wanted to know what kind of thread you are using? I have some troubles to find thread in different colours, my favorite Aida20, is usually available in white and offwhite, seldom pink or light blue. Maybe I have to look for different threads?

The names are sometimes different in other continents, but if you compare them, it is the same. And most of my books are from USA....

Thank you very much

Claudia

[IcePrincess]

@ swissgirl: You've got PM.

[AKTATTER]

Sherry, I believe you shared a pumpkin pattern with the online tatting class in 2004? It seems to be missing from the archive. Do you still have it available?
Georgia Seitz
AKTATTER@aol.com

[greytimneh]

Is this the pattern you were looking for? I just finished tatting this pumpkin... it is adorable, and a joy to tat! (a big Thank You Sherry!!!) http://cqmagonline.com/vol03iss04/articles/379/index.shtml

[AKTATTER]

Sherry, Marco from the Dutch tatting guild wants to get permission to use your pattern. Here is her email:

From: marco voesenek-janse <hetvingerhoedje@gmail.com>
To: georgia seitz <AKTATTER@aol.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 31, 2010 1:43 pm
Hello Georgia,
my last mail went down with your old computer i think haha

Hope this one wil do good service for you and give you a lot of pleasure!!!

I am trying to find a adress from: Sherry Matthews , she made a pumpkin in 2004 and we would like to use it.
but i cannot find here adress, hope you can help me out again.

thanks and a bigh hugh from me.
greetings MArco